Why don't we ever hate on.....

[murrburger]

Yeah, well, it's called 'fluff' for a reason.

The idea is not to take things too seriously (IE, how does the City of Executioners sustain itself?) , and just enjoy the game for what it is. It's not supposed to be a world you can fully immerse yourself in, it's just supposed to be a general background/theme on the race/faction being featured.

Also, the 40K books range from excellent (Ciaphis Cain series, Ian Watson's Inquisition Wars*) to utter crap (Blood Angels series, everything C.S. Goto). So, I think they pretty much count as neutral.

I myself enjoy the background of both games, although I tend to gravitate towards 40K more. Just my preference.

*Depending on how much you appreciate 2nd edition, and by extension, Squats.

[C.of.N.finity]

This is a pearl. ''why the game plays like chess and not like an army based miniatures game or anything like the fluff would have you believe. '' And in what way is chess not a army based miniature wargame? Do you really REALLY have such a hard time with abstraction?!? I bet you're one of those defenders of TLOS, ''because it's realistic!''.

I do like TLoS. You must be one of thsoe people that think armies set around before a battle aggreing which of their military units can shoot over which peices of terrain. Chess is a miniatures game, but it has zero fluff. My point was that PP tries (and does a really good job at) producing fluff for it's models but it's just falls flat on the table; which leaves it much like Chess.

Nice. So you know the fluff better than those who write it. Never heard of a war that lasted more than 6 years?

Never one that consisted of so many prolonged battles from so many aggressors in such a confined space that consumes a mass amount of resources from all sides. The only thing close I can think of is Germany in WW2 when likened to Cygnar and it's battles on numerous fronts and dwindling resources, except Cygnars position is even more complicated what with fighting Trollkin, Undead, Khador, Skorne and PoM all on it's borders or oceans. It's horrible writing, period.

So you really know next to nothing about the setting, right? Because otherwise you would know the reason why Jacks shut downs when the warcaster dies. Also, if something is able to kill the Jedi next to me, you can be sure as hell that I ain't gonna stay there until i find out what it's gonna do to my stormtrooper buttock.

I know that in every game of warmachine I've ever played, my warcaster has died and they're still kicking around in the fluff. I know that these same warcasters, rare as they are, seem to be at every warmachine game I've ever played. I'm one of those people that said, "Hey, maybe Grey Knights shouldn't have a book becuase, ya know, aren't they supposed to be rare? Like, even more rare than normal marines?". It's just poor writing, and leaves it so that whichever warcaster is the first to lose has a "I'll get you next time 'Gadget!" moment.

Really, PP games are just horrible. The rock, paper, scissors mechanic is so broke that you and your opponent can show up with prebuilt lists and the game is already heavily against you. I show up with a stealth heavy force then sitting across from me is nothing but blast weapons = not a fun game for anyone.

Most games end around turn 3, usually consisting of running towards each other as fast as possible to kill the head jedi becuase the entire battle will stall, no one else is capable of leading, there is absolutly no contengency plan if head jedi dude "dies" (again...and again...and again).

And lets not be stupid, the whole front won't fail becuase some warjacks go inert becuase they have to GIVE you free warjacks for people to even take them! You can tell a game has a broke function when they beg you to utilize said function. Even then, people normally take the bare neccesity then stock up on troops. It's not lovingly referenced as 'troopmachine' for no reason. Unfortunatly, no matter how many ground pounders are taken that have awesome training and individual command structures, they collectivly poop their pants and flee if jedi dude dies....agian.

On a personal note, I ****ing hate Victoria Haley. That ***** can do EVERYTHING. She has a great stat line, great amount of focus for her skill set, can cancel spells, can scramble jacks that get too close, can take down infantry (with a spell better than even ashes to ashes) and then combine that with an awesome utility feat and the ever dumb-as-hell temporal barrier and it just goes to show what bad writing truly is. I think she even has a buff too.

[BrokenWing]

Two things I don't like about Warmachine:

1. Steampunk.

2. Having some random warmachine guy tell me (while I'm having alot of fun playing 40k) "You should sell all your 40k stuff and play a real game."

Buzz off.

[Kovnik Obama]

I do like TLoS. You must be one of thsoe people that think armies set around before a battle aggreing which of their military units can shoot over which peices of terrain. Chess is a miniatures game, but it has zero fluff. My point was that PP tries (and does a really good job at) producing fluff for it's models but it's just falls flat on the table; which leaves it much like Chess.

It's a wargame. WAR-GAME. IT IMPLIES ABSTRACTION, or else we'd kill each other, plain and simple. And no, I think base2base LOS is the best way to go. TLOS 'because its realistic' is retardo, because it fails to grasp that the models are abstracted warriors that ARE STUCK IN A PARTICULAR POSE. ITS NOT REALISTIC.

Never one that consisted of so many prolonged battles from so many aggressors in such a confined space that consumes a mass amount of resources from all sides. The only thing close I can think of is Germany in WW2 when likened to Cygnar and it's battles on numerous fronts and dwindling resources, except Cygnars position is even more complicated what with fighting Trollkin, Undead, Khador, Skorne and PoM all on it's borders or oceans. It's horrible writing, period.

Confined space? I think the IK are about 2-3 times the size of Europe. So many prolongued battles? Only 2 important sieges in the last 6 years of settings, Northguard and Caspia. Everything else is peripheral. Cygnar is beset on all sides? Incorrect, they currently fight Khador and Cryx, as the hostilities with the PoM are currently on hold. And the trollkins are about as scary to cygnar as a wet baby hare is to a lion. It isn't horrible writing, its your inability to remember the fluff correctly.

I know that in every game of warmachine I've ever played, my warcaster has died and they're still kicking around in the fluff.

Dumbest critic ever.

I know that these same warcasters, rare as they are, seem to be at every warmachine game I've ever played.

2nd dumbest critic ever. I killed Captain America 2018 times at Marvel vs Capcom since the early 2000, why didn't he die earlier in the fluff???

Really, PP games are just horrible. The rock, paper, scissors mechanic is so broke that you and your opponent can show up with prebuilt lists and the game is already heavily against you. I show up with a stealth heavy force then sitting across from me is nothing but blast weapons = not a fun game for anyone.

It is for the Khador player. And now you know why focusing a force on a single shennannigan is a bad idea. But you really had to test it to realize it???

Most games end around turn 3, usually consisting of running towards each other as fast as possible to kill the head jedi becuase the entire battle will stall, no one else is capable of leading, there is absolutly no contengency plan if head jedi dude "dies" (again...and again...and again).

Man you must be a horrible player. Also, ''no one else is capable of leading, there is absolutly no contengency plan if head jedi dude "dies" '' is based on the fluff. No one else than the casters have the capacities to direct a dedicated Jack. THAT WAS IN THE RPG. and now you criticize that PP games don't feel like the fluff? Maybe you should reread the fluff.

On a personal note, I ****ing hate Victoria Haley. That ***** can do EVERYTHING. She has a great stat line, great amount of focus for her skill set, can cancel spells, can scramble jacks that get too close, can take down infantry (with a spell better than even ashes to ashes) and then combine that with an awesome utility feat and the ever dumb-as-hell temporal barrier and it just goes to show what bad writing truly is. I think she even has a buff too.

Sounds like you have a clear case of the butthurt there. Try not suck!ing so bad at the game, I guess?

[C.of.N.finity]

It's a wargame. WAR-GAME. IT IMPLIES ABSTRACTION, or else we'd kill each other, plain and simple. And no, I think base2base LOS is the best way to go. TLOS 'because its realistic' is retardo, because it fails to grasp that the models are abstracted warriors that ARE STUCK IN A PARTICULAR POSE. ITS NOT REALISTIC.

Your abstract is different from my abstract, don't wet yourself over it. I prefer my way of playing with plastic men than you do.

Confined space? I think the IK are about 2-3 times the size of Europe. So many prolongued battles? Only 2 important sieges in the last 6 years of settings, Northguard and Caspia. Everything else is peripheral. Cygnar is beset on all sides? Incorrect, they currently fight Khador and Cryx, as the hostilities with the PoM are currently on hold. And the trollkins are about as scary to cygnar as a wet baby hare is to a lion. It isn't horrible writing, its your inability to remember the fluff correctly.

Incorrect, they are engaged currently with Skorne on the East, Cryx to the south and the ocean, Khador to the North, Trollkin to the Northwest and as long as I keep fielding Menoth models and my opponent fields Cygnar, then Menoth to the southeast. It's a fact, deal with it. I would think the threat each army posses towards Cygnar may differ depending on which army player your speaking with as I highly doubt a Troll player would assess themselves as a wet baby hare.

2nd dumbest critic ever. I killed Captain America 2018 times at Marvel vs Capcom since the early 2000, why didn't he die earlier in the fluff???

Maybe he should of? I don't know why people write things poorly, I only call them out on it. You have a problem with Captain America, I have a problem with PP and their poor writing.

I mean, I see your point so far as that just becuase something dies on the tabletop doesn't mean it should die in the fluff. Hell, 40k has character models that see repeated use too. However, my point was that I have the OPTION of selecting those 40k character models, they arne't forced upon me in every game like in warmachine which suggests that these incredably rare warcasters are at every single engagement and thus must be fleeing like a childish cartoon character whenever their defeated to have 'survived' so often. It's just poor writing based around the concept of the King in flavorless, fluffless, chess - which leads back to the first point I made earlier.

It is for the Khador player. And now you know why focusing a force on a single shennannigan is a bad idea. But you really had to test it to realize it???

I don't think it helps your argument when you call a gameplay element PP invented a shennannigan. Focusing around a central theme or concept is old hat and shouldn't be looked down upon especially in a game that encourages theme lists. What should be looked down upon is that there are a good deal of instances where Army A is across from Army B and you can already tell how the game is going to end. Every miniatures game can suffer from this to a degree; I played Wood Elves for awhile and had a friend that loved to run Thorek in a dwarves list, for instance. I just shook his hand, said 'good game, wanna play again?'. However, I've run into this so many times in warmachine. Hell, the 'rolling thunder' cygnar list still eats most of my forces if I feel like bringing a slower list to the table. It's just not balanced properly for the mechanics it emphasises.

Man you must be a horrible player. Also, ''no one else is capable of leading, there is absolutly no contengency plan if head jedi dude "dies" '' is based on the fluff. No one else than the casters have the capacities to direct a dedicated Jack. THAT WAS IN THE RPG. and now you criticize that PP games don't feel like the fluff? Maybe you should reread the fluff.

I have no idea what your talking about. If your referencing the turn 3 thing by calling me a horrible player, then sadly, your ignorant of yet another fact about your game. Even the latest article on the new Cryx model suggest that most games end around turn three. I'm not saying all, by any means, but most I've seen and heard of will end ~turn 3 on average.

Heres the qoute from the article I mentioned:
"Make it Incorporeal one turn, use her feat the next, then make it incorporeal again. That’s three turns of near invulnerability in a row, in a game that is frequently over that quickly. Just remember that eSkarre should always bring along one or two Heavies to make the best use of Admonition and Perdition."

Otherwise, I was ciritsizing the fact that you have an entire army of trained men, many of whom or dedicated to taking out warjacks on their own, that also possess their own highly trained command structure pissing themselves and running becuase a head jedi dude dies...again...for the billionth time... Hell, on a good night, I could have the same warcaster die three times in three individual games progressing at the same time. It's just stupid.

Sounds like you have a clear case of the butthurt there. Try not suck!ing so bad at the game, I guess?

This is usually the last line of defense for someone with nothing of value to say. You could have at least exhibited some drive and posted a link to a tactics forum giving advice on how to beat Haley, that would been snide AND crafty. In any case, I hate the caster so your not far off the mark but it does still serve the purpose of presenting a very poorly written character thats existed since the first book.

[Kovnik Obama]

Incorrect, they are engaged currently with Skorne on the East, Cryx to the south and the ocean, Khador to the North, Trollkin to the Northwest and as long as I keep fielding Menoth models and my opponent fields Cygnar, then Menoth to the southeast. It's a fact, deal with it. I would think the threat each army posses towards Cygnar may differ depending on which army player your speaking with as I highly doubt a Troll player would assess themselves as a wet baby hare. Your ignorance is showing.

Ah. It's actually a case of ''not getting that Fluff =/= Rules. Doug Seacat himself stated that the hostilities with Menoth are currently at n standstill, with each sides only testing each other trough very small skirmishes. His word trumps yours. He also posted a chart of hostility levels between the factions. It was shown that right until FoW ; Cryx (so what, 607-8?), the Legion had not faced Cryx in a single encounter. The number of games played or the possibilities of engagement have no bearing whatsoever on the number of actual engagements of the warcasters and warlocks in the setting. This is what having a ongoing setting means. Think back to Vampire the Mascarade, pre-Gehenna.

Focusing around a central theme or concept is old hat and shouldn't be looked down upon especially in a game that encourages theme lists.

You cannot avoid the fact that WHEN YOU DECIDE TO BUILD A ONE TRICK LIST, and that particular one trick list HAS A VERY OBVIOUS HARD COUNTER, you will get frakked WHEN FACING SAID HARD COUNTER. That is why mixed force is INHERENTLY superior, because it can negate BOTH your one trick list and its hard counter. You are a Menoth player, and I still have to tell you this?

"Make it Incorporeal one turn, use her feat the next, then make it incorporeal again. That’s three turns of near invulnerability in a row, in a game that is frequently over that quickly. Just remember that eSkarre should always bring along one or two Heavies to make the best use of Admonition and Perdition."

Case of different meta? I rarely play less than 5 turns. I'm a Menoth player. I bite on my enemies fists and proceed unto grinding them through attrition.

This is usually the last line of defense for someone with nothing of value to say. You could have at least exhibited some drive and posted a link to a tactics forum giving advice on how to beat Haley, that would been snide AND crafty. In any case, I hate the caster so your not far off the mark but it does still serve the purpose of presenting a very poorly written character thats existed since the first book.

Why help you? From your posts you don't appear to me to be a new player. You appear to me to be someone who failed to learn from his mistakes and developped bitterness toward a game. I don't feel in any way the desire to artifically push you up the learning curve. But I won't either accept that you misrepresent the balance of the game to a crowd that's already ... what's the word... negative?.. about it because you don't get the very basics of confrontational situations. But ...

Hell, the 'rolling thunder' cygnar list still eats most of my forces if I feel like bringing a slower list to the table.

... what? How is eStryker's feat better agaisnt a slow list than a fast one? With the right distance measurement, speed won't change a thing... And... How is it that much better than eKreoss's? Or any of the Tier 1 Caster feats? How does that show that ''It's just not balanced properly for the mechanics it emphasises.''?

[Paul]

Ah. It's actually a case of ''not getting that Fluff =/= Rules. Doug Seacat himself stated that the hostilities with Menoth are currently at a standstill. His word trumps yours.

See, there's part of my problem with Warmachine. Yes, I know that Fluff != Rules. However, I would LIKE them to, and there's so many options and lists in 40k that I can at least field what I want, and the suspension of disbelief is easier for me to maintain.

Suffice to say, I play both 40k and Warmachine, and have a sizeable Khador force who follows Karchev the Terrible. However, I play 40k more, because as much as it breaks physics and known science, it isn't so egregious as to have to say "our armored units are magic powered, because it's the only way they could possibly work."

[Kovnik Obama]

Suffice to say, I play both 40k and Warmachine, and have a sizeable Khador force who follows Karchev the Terrible. However, I play 40k more, because as much as it breaks physics and known science, it isn't so egregious as to have to say "our armored units are magic powered, because it's the only way they could possibly work."

Mechanika was one of the 1st theme of the game. You are taking it backwards. It isn't ''we need to use magick to excuse our ridiculous armour'', it's ''what ridiculous armours can we invent that uses magick''. That was a signature point of the IK steampunk feel. That and the almost inexistence of wheels.

[Paul]

Mechanika was one of the 1st theme of the game. You are taking it backwards. It isn't ''we need to use magick to excuse our ridiculous armour'', it's ''what ridiculous armours can we invent that uses magick''. That was a signature point of the IK steampunk feel. That and the almost inexistence of wheels.

No, I see that logic. The problem is the last sentence.

It's a basic law (the Square Cube law, in fact) that if you put some armor over a given surface area, you can make the same amount of armor much thicker by giving it a small surface area.

SO, if you have magic armor, you can put it on legs, and get 100mm thick armored plates (Armor rating 20) because it's a big beastie.

OR you could put your magic armor thing on a small box on treads/wheels (think the cortex (head of the jack) plus, say, a single Bombard or Deck Gun) and then the same weight of armor and end up with a much smaller, much cheaper thing which is also more mobile and (provided it is 50% less surface area) with probably has 200mm of armor (Armor rating 25?), without an appreciable loss of firepower over, say, a Destroyer.

Walkers have other problems, too.

Long story short: this sort of thing ruins my suspension of disbelief.

[Kovnik Obama]

Long story short: this sort of thing ruins my suspension of disbelief.

Thats kinda sad, since it's an intentional design, and in all honesty, isn't the worst suspension in the setting or in any wargame setting. But at least you admit to it being a subjective factor, which is cool.