A matter of taste

[eldargal]

I think you could have a National Socialist themed army without covering it in swastikas. If someone has to put swastikas and whatnot all over a 40k army I question their motives, it is in't a WWII period game so chances are they are doing it just to shock. If someone has a converted National Socialist themed IG army with appropriate colour scheme and whatnot, sans swastikas, that is a good, subtle nod to the fascist feudalism of the Imperium.

Space Marines, not so much, as they are more like Knights Templar than the SS.

People can be easily offended, and I'm not particularly fond of censoring things just because they are offensive to some. But the fact is National Socialism led to destruction on an unprecedented scale, the human, cultural, architectural and economic costs were immense. Ignoring that just to put swastikas on your plastic toy army smacks of immaturity more than anythign else.

[chromedog]

I had a TO come over to me at my last 40k tourney because someone across the room had accused me of having swastikas on my vehicles. The accusation did not require proof - "it looked like a swastika" isn't proof.

It was a GK army and they were Inquisition crosses (Capital 'I' style). Ok, so the banners were red with a large white circle and the black =I= in the centre, and they could perhaps be confused from across the room - but a second, closer look would remove that assumption (I was going to go with a motif closer to the Tetragrammaton flags from "Equilibrium" but that would have blurred the boundaries a tad too much.).
The TO saw them, and that they weren't what they were declared to be, and cleared them.
They aren't supposed to be bearing hello kitty pennants (although HK does offend me).

[daboarder]

I think you could have a National Socialist themed army without covering it in swastikas. If someone has to put swastikas and whatnot all over a 40k army I question their motives, it is in't a WWII period game so chances are they are doing it just to shock. If someone has a converted National Socialist themed IG army with appropriate colour scheme and whatnot, sans swastikas, that is a good, subtle nod to the fascist feudalism of the Imperium.

THIS^

you could easily get your point across without the swastika.

I'm not one for creating bogeymen out of the ****'s, they did terrible things to many people including attempted and successful genocide ie: gypsies. That being said we must always remember that they were humans and made the same mistakes and decisions that humans can still make. We should also remember that they weren't the first to attempt genocide of a minority in the 20th century, that dubious honor goes to Ataturk.

Anyway, I don't find the swastika offensive, but if you painted it all over a 40k army then you either sympathize with their ideals (not a good thing) OR you are going out of your way TOO offend people.

For an example on how to achieve a nod too that army look at the various forms of IG, many of them do take artistic styles from many German army uniforms.

Hells the Commissar is a half half of gestapo and Russian Commissariat.

[fade_74]

Sorry WKZ, I didn't mean to neglect the Japanese occupation of southeast Asia during WW2. I know they were terrible to conquered peoples. Most of the WW2 vets from this area were in the pacific, including my grandfather, and a great uncle. Americans tend to forget about that and that was my point. We remember the nasi's though.

Necron 2.0, I worry sometimes. I have a family to protect, and if I saw a guy with an army painted up like nasi's I gotta wonder if that person is someone to have anywhere near myself or my family. I'm not a special interest group worried about being offended. I am also not a clueless moron. I don't have any white guilt. I do deal with racism on a daily basis at work though. I see the kind of hatred some people teach their children, and that makes me watchful.

Really, would you want your kid around someone you didn't know who thought that it was cool to paint up little nasi's?

[Wishing]

Really, would you want your kid around someone you didn't know who thought that it was cool to paint up little nasi's?

Good points, fade 74. While in principle, there is little difference between choosing to decorate our plastic soldiers in swastikas or any other symbol of an aggressive military power that has committed atrocities throughout human history, different symbols have different social resonance at different points in time and place. Everyone knows that national socialist germany is a big trauma for Europe and the West at this point in time. As such, someone that chooses to flaunt their symbolism in an inappropriate setting clearly wants to send a signal, which is basically a big middle finger to those around them. You might compare it to wearing a swastika t-shirt. Imagine how many friends you'd make wearing that.

One of the reactions this kind of gesture can elicit, as fade and other recent posters point out, is to make people wonder about your character. Why do you think it is cool or funny to go out of your way to offend people? Are you just immature, or do you actually have a problem with your society's norms to an extent that you might be an extremist of some kind? If so, what are you capable of?

Maybe people should just lighten up, but if you are a mature adult, you should accept that there are some things that your society can take great offense at, and act accordingly.

[Hive Mind]

You also have to consider that while duder with National Socialist army has the right to his freedom of expression, the store owner also has a right to restrict access to his store if he wants to. Unless you're a public authority there's no requirement to respect expression rights under the Charter, ECHR, First Amendment or whatever.

It's hard to be absolute about any of this really because we only have one side of the story and it's very sparse on details. Maybe the guy was actually kicked out for being a tool to other customers or trying to steal but he's passing it off as a censorship issue. Maybe the store has a lot of customers who might be sensitive to that sort of stuff or maybe the store owner had family affected by WWII. Maybe it didn't happen at all.

[Wolf Brother Hellstrom]

The Unfortunate thing about this world is that somewhere somehow someone is going to be offended.

I have a friend whose parents are extremely religious and just to mention the word " wyches" or any curse word can get me kicked out of the house for the day.

I think the point is in the intention. If someone is purposelly trying to offend someone then he will most likely succeed.

When I was a GW employee we had a guy who wanted to theme his eldar army like the dukes of hazzard. for those not familiar it was a 80's TV show about two hilbilly heros from the deep south, running from the police in a suped up orange hotrod with a confederette flag painted on the car.

I thought it was a great idea even though in america the confederate flag is controversally rascist. but then he took it to far and painted white hoods on the army i.e. the klu klux klan. He had crossed that invisible line of controversal and plunged straight into offensive. he was asked not to bring in the army until it was repainted.

so like i said it is all about intent. if you theme your plastic soldiers like ****s, KKK, or something equally hateful you know it will offend someone. lets use some common sense

[templarboy]

Back in the halcyon days of Adeptus Titanicus/Epic 40k, the younger brother of my gaming buddy showed up with his "secret" army. It was a beautifully painted and complete "Squatzi" force. Black, red and silver with swastikas everywhere. He had taken the better part of a month painting up this atrocity. Every piece was painted and the entire thing was grossly expensive.

I was thunderstuck. Both of my grandfathers fought in WW2. My mother's father died shortly after returning wounded from Europe. My best friend growing up had a grandmother with a curious tattoo on her arm from Auschwitz. I would have never even thought of doing an entire "Squatzi" army. Heck if I played FOW I probably wouldn't even paint a German army.

This kid that had this army was 16-17 yrs old. He thought he was very clever and that everyone would think his theme was funny. I climbed up on my high horse and offered to spray paint his stuff for him. I refused to have my stuff on the same table. He relented and repainted his stuff. I think he showed very poor judgement in the onset and good judgement in the final.

I felt very strongly about his painting scheme. I still do to this day nearly 20 years later. People need to remember that wargaming is a social interaction. Don't require me to be a part of your insensitivity and I will return the favor. He also had a batheing problem but that is an entirely different rant. Overall, folks just need to think about what they are doing and who will see it. Does the FLGS owner want his store associated with a possible idiot/racist? How about a KKK themed army? What about a topless all female Blood Bowl team? The line must be drawn somewhere and the FLGS owner is the ultimate arbitor of what happens in his store. His store his choice.

[HsojVvad]

I don't think he should have been banned right away. If the owner of the store said it was offensive, it is his right to say so, so he should have been given a chance to use another army. Now if this person refused to use another army then yes he should have been banned.

How Ironic though that the 40K univers is even worse than the nasi and SS 1000 X worse.

It all depends on what people find offensive. How about if someone made a Taliban army? How many Americans would be upset? Espically if the iconography was 2 towers crumbling down? Would that be offensive?

Yes there are limits what should be done espically if you plan on meeting the public and strangers for games. If it just sits in your house, then you can do what ever you want, but bringing it out in public, then care should be taken in consideration.

[eldargal]

Yes but 40k is fiction. No one has had grandparents were murdered by the Inquisition for blaspheming the Emperor. The people the National Socialists killed were real and for all you know your opponents grandfather could have fought them and take it quite seriously.

A Taliban army would be offensive, however how many people even know Taliban iconpgraphy? Given they don't have much of a uniform far easier to just call it a desert world army if anyone questions it. they certainly don't use two crumbling towers as a sign given that they were not responsible for that. Nor do Al-Qaeda who were, come to think of it.