Anyone else vexed with the Heresy Series???

[wittdooley]

Compare him to someone like Fulgrim who has to be slowly corrupted over time or Kurze who is slowly driven mad by his own powers and his fatalistic view of humanity and Horus really doesn't come out well. How he is able to persuade so many of his brothers to join him is a mystery to me.

Well, let's think about who Horus actually "persuades."

Angron --- Bloodthirsty psychopath that loves to kill. Tough sell there.
Perturabo -- Bloodthirsty psycopath that likes to kill and slave. Sensing a Trend.
Konrad Curze -- Bloodthirst Batman that loves to kill and torture to prove a point. Hmmm
Mortarion -- The Death Lord that already lived in poisonous gas.

I'd argue that those are the only Primarchs that are convinced by Horus.

Fulgrim -- Fall to Chaos after slow poisoning. Is possessed.
Magnus -- Fall to Chaos after disobeying the Emperor and accepting his punishment and fleeing into the Chaos Wastes
Lorgar -- Fall to Chaos after dismissal by the Emperor, and only after his men are subjected to Chaos first
Alpharius/Omegon - Pragmatic convincing that they had to side with Horus or the world would end, rather than just burn and be crappy for a while.

Horus' fall, remember, was due to his near death experience with the Chaos Gods while in a coma. The Chaos Gods saved him. In saving him, they seeded him with Chaos. He was quite noble before that.

[wittdooley]

In HH terms, the anakin's mum phase is the initial displeasure with the Emperor heading back to Earth. Sand People angst is getting convinced by the arguments of the daemons/macguffins/whatever floats their boat. At the outset, you still sympathise. Istavaan is Order 66, followed by everything else. No sympathy, they have no regrets, they're poncing around the Eye of Terror, pimping out planets, sipping crystal and making big whoopy with daemons interspersed with occasional genocidal violence against the people of the corpse-God - aka the Black Crusades. hell, they even have something called the Planet Killer! At this stage the motive is purely self interest and not trag-heroic.
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I don't think this is too far off, but then that's the point. Do you ever feel bad for Vadar in Episode IV? Hells Naw. Do you ever feel bad for Vadar in Episode V? Hells naw. Only when Luke see's the good in him do we start to feel bad for Vadar. The prequel movies help to humanize Anakin. Despite the 'greatness' of the prequels, Fulgrim, Magnus, and Lorgar pre-Chaos are essentially prequel Anakin. They are good, and noble, and sympathetic before the fall. That's why they have entire books devoted to them and Mortarion or Angron do not. To steal from the immortal Denny Green, 'they are who we thought they were.' The ones who fall are not.

We're not supposed to feel bad for the post-Chaos Primarchs. We're not. They're redemption story has yet to be written. The Horus Heresy is the prequel trilogy. 40k is Force Unleashed Vadar, hunting down the remaining Jedi and Episode IV blowing up Alderaan Vadar. We haven't seen Episode V Vadar yet in the 40k verse. That Vadar is final battle Fulgrim or Magnus, when they overcome the Chaos Gods they've let possess them, and help defeat them once and for all (I just don't see it happening for Lorgar).

[Denzark]

There is somewhat of a dichotomy between the 'perfection' and the fallen nature of the corrupted primarchs. Agree that mortarion and angron were forgone conclusions. Its a bit too convenient for me. I am actually more sympathetic for Horus - who fell hardest - who actually has a vader-esque redemption when he realised what he had done. The others know nor care not - unrepentant them, unsympathetic me.

I might have to agree to disagree respectfully here as I run the risk of sounding overly moralistic - as a Khorne player it sticks in my craw like a pint of clotting Grey Knight blood...

[Nabterayl]

There is somewhat of a dichotomy between the 'perfection' and the fallen nature of the corrupted primarchs. Agree that mortarion and angron were forgone conclusions. Its a bit too convenient for me. I am actually more sympathetic for Horus - who fell hardest - who actually has a vader-esque redemption when he realised what he had done. The others know nor care not - unrepentant them, unsympathetic me.

I might have to agree to disagree respectfully here as I run the risk of sounding overly moralistic - as a Khorne player it sticks in my craw like a pint of clotting Grey Knight blood...

I've always looked at the perfection/corruption dichotomy as pointing up one of the Emperor's own blind spots - he views himself as perfection, and he isn't. Whatever good qualities they had, the Emperor and his Primarchs were also insufferable self-important gits. They're susceptible to corruption (i) because the Great Crusade was bull**** to start with, and (ii) because they're not as perfect as they think they are.

Out of curiosity, what do you mean about "as a Khorne player?" I've always found Khorne the most sympathetic of the Chaos gods.

[Denzark]

Ie I shouldn't moralise and try to convince you of my point of view - would be a touch hypocritical and anyhoo thats what a chainaxe in the bonce will do just as well...

[Wildeybeast]

Well, let's think about who Horus actually "persuades."

Angron --- Bloodthirsty psychopath that loves to kill. Tough sell there.
Perturabo -- Bloodthirsty psycopath that likes to kill and slave. Sensing a Trend.
Konrad Curze -- Bloodthirst Batman that loves to kill and torture to prove a point. Hmmm
Mortarion -- The Death Lord that already lived in poisonous gas.

I'd argue that those are the only Primarchs that are convinced by Horus.

Fulgrim -- Fall to Chaos after slow poisoning. Is possessed.
Magnus -- Fall to Chaos after disobeying the Emperor and accepting his punishment and fleeing into the Chaos Wastes
Lorgar -- Fall to Chaos after dismissal by the Emperor, and only after his men are subjected to Chaos first
Alpharius/Omegon - Pragmatic convincing that they had to side with Horus or the world would end, rather than just burn and be crappy for a while.

Horus' fall, remember, was due to his near death experience with the Chaos Gods while in a coma. The Chaos Gods saved him. In saving him, they seeded him with Chaos. He was quite noble before that.

On reflection I guess he doesn't really persuade any of them. They all get lured into Chaos and just see him as a natural leader for their rebellion. In fact the whole persuasion things really doesn't work at all.

*spoilers*

Horus: Are you sure you can persuade him to join us Fulgrim?
Fulgrim: Absolutely. Definitely. 100% certain on that.
Horus: Ok, go for it.

Fulgrim: Hey Ferrus, I've joined this totally cool new club where we hang out and mutilate ourselves and were gonna kill the emperor and take over the galaxy and stuff. You should totally join us, I can definitely get you in.
Ferrus: No.
Fulgrim: What?
Ferrus: No. That sounds like a really lame club, why would you even think I want to join your crappy club? I'm in the Emperor's club and we already rule the galaxy dumbass.
Fulgrim: Oh. You sure?
Ferrus: Yeah.
Fulgrim. Bummer. I really thought you'd join. I guess I'm going to have to kill you now and then get all upset about it and give into demon possession cos I can't take the guilt and I'm a bit of a moron.

As for Horus being noble before his fall, I get that he is, he must be becuase of his background, its just that we never see it, so I feel nothing for him. And I don't buy the whole seeding him with Chaos. In fact, unlike say Fulgrim who gives in and is manipulated and consumed by it, Horus just sees Chaos as tool he can use, like any other weapon. Chaos needs him more than he needs it. But he's just duped so easily. One quick vision of a crappy future without him and his first thought is the emperor betrays him? It never once occurs to him during his whole rebellion that maybe he isn't in the future visions becasue of his rebellion which would then swiftly lead to the thought that it isn't going to end well for him. Like I said, chump.

[wittdooley]

As for Horus being noble before his fall, I get that he is, he must be becuase of his background, its just that we never see it, so I feel nothing for him. And I don't buy the whole seeding him with Chaos. In fact, unlike say Fulgrim who gives in and is manipulated and consumed by it, Horus just sees Chaos as tool he can use, like any other weapon. Chaos needs him more than he needs it. But he's just duped so easily. One quick vision of a crappy future without him and his first thought is the emperor betrays him? It never once occurs to him during his whole rebellion that maybe he isn't in the future visions becasue of his rebellion which would then swiftly lead to the thought that it isn't going to end well for him. Like I said, chump.

I didn't really feel much sympathy for Horus, either. I certainly did for Fulgrim and Magnus. I couldn't really for Lorgar because he was such a Nancy.

[BrokenWing]

Ah yes, Lorgar.

Lorgar: "So I made this prayer book and a church for you father."
Emperor: "Uh...that's really kind of creepy, don't do that."
Lorgar: *sniff* "fine! I'll just worship someone who appreciates my efforts!"

[Denzark]

I really like Guilliman slapping down Lorgar.

MTFU Lorgar!

[Michael_maggs]

A small star wars comparison - Anakin's mum dying - sympathy. - Anakin killing sand-people in angst - some sympathy still. The new Darth Vader doing order 66 on younglings - no sympathy. Machine Darth Vader blowing up alderaan - no sympathy. Anakin throwing Palpatine down a power shaft thus redeeming himself - some sympathy.

In HH terms, the anakin's mum phase is the initial displeasure with the Emperor heading back to Earth. Sand People angst is getting convinced by the arguments of the daemons/macguffins/whatever floats their boat. At the outset, you still sympathise. Istavaan is Order 66, followed by everything else. No sympathy, they have no regrets, they're poncing around the Eye of Terror, pimping out planets, sipping crystal and making big whoopy with daemons interspersed with occasional genocidal violence against the people of the corpse-God - aka the Black Crusades. hell, they even have something called the Planet Killer! At this stage the motive is purely self interest and not trag-heroic.

Magnus is one that gets me in particular. He weighs it up, he ignores the daemons, he breaks the creed, he then accepts the wrath of the Wolves - he didn't use all the planetary defences, thus opening the whole world to a wolf-pack rapine and plundering. Only then does he have second thoughts. He was going to take the wolf tea-bagging in the face of pleas from his captains, and THEN he turns. I don't think omniscient Magnus thought Russ was coming for a tea party - he knew what was coming and took it on the chin, THEN turned, a sensible point would have been when the grey spaceships turned up outside...

Spoiler alert





from reading prospero burns i guess magnus believed he could go quietly to face punishment on terra, afterall russ was reluctant to kill his brother. if the fall of magnus was not engineered by the deamon then russ and magnus might have open up a line of dialogue and both legions would have been saved the devistation. through out the journey to prospero russ pleaded with the skijald as he believed he was a psychic link to magnus while magnus refused to lower the shield in case his legion would defy him and attack

Magnus's fall is the most painful as it is needless and is born of compassion for his dying sons
sorry i have just reallised you have most aptly addressed most of the issues in my post