Falchions Nerfed. Really?

[DarkLink]

Well, my point is that not many people actually read WD, so not many would know about any rules mentioned there in its battle reports.

Plus, I've seen WD reports that got rules flat-out wrong before, so unless you could directly source the comment to the codex author as opposed to some nameless GW employee, it's a little suspect.

[Kawauso]

P.60 under heading "Tactica - Grey Knights": "Are you worthy to command such a force? Matt Ward says he is, and has set out to prove it in this tactica."

P.61 con't heading "Nemesis, I Name Thee" from P.60: "Against horde armies like Orks or Tyranids, take Nemesis falchions for +1 attack per model."

I know not everyone reads WD - especially compared to how many people play the game. I'm just saying this makes it pretty clear that the intent from the start was always +1 attack for falchions, not +2, and people have been interpreting it incorrectly (not that GW is free of blame in this, of course; they need to learn how to write clearer rules...this just reinforces my opinion that they are artists and writers first, and game designers second).

[Kawauso]

Actually, WD battle reports aren't the greatest place to take rules clarifications from because it is quite common for the individuals writing the report/playing the game to make mistakes and then print those mistakes. It's happened quite a bit in the last few years.

Though you're certainly correct that DarkLinks reasons for not paying attention to a rules issue in a WD battle report certainly have nothing to do with the topic at hand.

I know that they make mistakes in their battle reports - there's even an obvious error in the article I'm talking about. Everyone makes mistakes - even editors. But for the record, it was a GK tactica article written by Matt Ward, not a battle report.

[BrokenWing]

That's fine, but since I never read it, I'm not about to make an argument based on it. Nor really is my intent in any of these discussions to try and argue that GW somehow has it wrong, or that the FAQ wasn't how they always intended Falchions to be used. I am, however, saying that with the exception of (sometimes) Terminators and (possibly) Purifiers Falchions are not worth it, this is a design flaw in the points costs of the upgrades available to the units.

As for the Matt Ward comment you quoted...he's clearly suggesting people tailor their list to their opponent. This is all well and good if you play against people who don't think it's poor sportsmanship at best, but it's really horrible for anyone planning on tournament play, where you can't tailor your list. When making a non-tailored list expected to take on anyone you might come across, you need the best out of your points, and that will frequently mean not taking that particular upgrade.

It's all interesting, that's for sure.

[wkz]

...
Lets look at it another way, on another model: The Warboss.

The Warboss can get an attack squig for 15 points. Yup, that's 5 points more than you gray knight dudes, sounds expensive, right?

Note that this is on a model who'd already have 4 attacks base, toughness 5, 3 wounds and able to amp up its defense to 4+/5++. Sure, the armor save is a bit weak (Warbosses have a tendency to bounce off stuff with armor-ignoring weapons), but on a good day a Warboss will be able to have more than 4~5 turns in close combat attacks. That's 4~5 more close combat attacks for the entire game.

Not only that, WHAT that +1A is, is important. A bare bones Warboss will have +1A... at Str 5 (6 on charge). A Warboss with a Big Choppa will have that same +1A at Str7 (8 on charge). But most people will probably give the Warboss a Claw, which means that +1A is an armor-ignoring, Str10 attack! For the same price!! What a bargain!!

At the end of the day, you gotta look at the big picture, looking at all the nuances of the unit, support units around it, army-wide rules, etc... And at the end of the day, +1A at 5 points, given that the weapon is base Str4 armor ignoring, force weapon on a combat monster with good saves AND able to be str boosted? My Warboss will KILL for that, to be honest.

[BrokenWing]

Yeah and it was the big picture that made me *not* want to take Falchions on my terminators in my standard list. Will there be times when I want to? Yes. Will I probably pay the 100 points for a squad of interceptors to have them? Probably. Will I more often use a different weapon? Most certainly. I just know that when the FAQ came out and I spent time analyzing my list I was able to make use of those falchion points for another upgrade somewhere else that will be more useful now.

[Aegis]

To me, it seems like falchions become a poor decision if you plan on outfitting the entire squad with them. However, their cost is hardly prohibitive if you merely sprinkle the unit with some for the extra attack.

I have been running a unit of interceptors with a hammer, three halberds and a set of falchions, and have seen rather good results with it. The halberds strike first usually, whittle the enemy down, falchions strike at the same time, usually, with a diminished number of return attacks (giving me the advantage of weight of numbers at this point), and the hammer squishes whatever is left.

Basically, I think we are looking at the falchions with the wrong approach. I do not think they were ever intended to be taken en masse, but rather as supplements to the unit. In fact, that is how a lot of the wargear for the GK's seem to operate.

But then, this is simply my opinion, and may be coloured by personal experience.

[HsojVvad]

Since I haven't looked at a WD in years, I'm just going to ignore it for this argument.

Let's all be really clear as to what Falchions actually do.

They give a model +1 attack. They do not give it "an extra force weapon" (whatever that even means), they don't give it another "demon bane, strength enhancing weapon" because demon bane is a rule the Grey Knight has, not the weapon, nor would having two of them actually accomplish anything extra special anyway and they do not enhance the GK's strength, that's a psychic power you already pay for when you buy the squad.
If you have a force weapon, and you pick up a knife, it gives you +1 attack. In this case, you're picking up a shiny knife, that gives you +1 attack.


Lets look at it from the point of view of Bob the Terminator (hi bob). Bob has a 4+ invulnerable save in close combat and 2 attacks, 3 if he charges. If his friend Fred drops his force weapon and picks up a flag, he now has 3 attacks, 4 if he charges. Now let's say Bob wants another attack. Well, now his invulnerable save just got worse, and he paid 5 points to do it. He gets another attack but see the frown? That's because he had to pay 5 points for something that costs everyone else 1 point and lost his better save in the process. Bob is sad.

Or Bob could get a worse invulnerable save but strike at initiative 6, meaning he'll probably just kill whoever was going to hit him anyway. This is free. Bob is happy again.

I'm not saying Falchions should cost only one point per guy, or be free (Although Bob might make that argument) but if you want people to take them more frequently, 5 points is probably too much. There is still some room for debate with Bob though, because it's only 5 points.

Now if you look at Jim the Interceptor, he has to pay 10 points. This makes him pretty unhappy, because he's probably going to have fewer of his Interceptor friends hanging around. If he doesn't, his player is going to be *really* unhappy, because he paid 100 points to give a squad what amounts to an extra close combat weapon, that's pretty lame.

I think Falchions probably have the strongest case for usability with Purifiers. They cost 5 points and Halberds cost 2, the difference between them and Terminators is that Terminators are losing abilities to take Falchions, Purifiers are not. My guess is Frank the Purifier will have a big grin on hi s face either way (but not Timmy the Gaunt).

Maybe they should play Tyranids then. Then you don't have to worry about getting +1 A or +2 A at all then. Talk about paying for points and not getting anything in return like other armies.

I find it funny how a squad of 20 hormies can have the same attacks of 5 or 10 SM or Temrinators. Pretty sad you double or triple the minis but have the same A.

[BrokenWing]

I think most people agree that the Tyranid codex has major issues.

[Soam]

To me, it seems like falchions become a poor decision if you plan on outfitting the entire squad with them. However, their cost is hardly prohibitive if you merely sprinkle the unit with some for the extra attack.

I have been running a unit of interceptors with a hammer, three halberds and a set of falchions, and have seen rather good results with it. The halberds strike first usually, whittle the enemy down, falchions strike at the same time, usually, with a diminished number of return attacks (giving me the advantage of weight of numbers at this point), and the hammer squishes whatever is left.

Basically, I think we are looking at the falchions with the wrong approach. I do not think they were ever intended to be taken en masse, but rather as supplements to the unit. In fact, that is how a lot of the wargear for the GK's seem to operate.

But then, this is simply my opinion, and may be coloured by personal experience.

My 2 cents for what its worth... The problem comes in when you compare them with the other options you can get for less points. I6 is massive, allowing you to kill your opponent before they can strike is a great way to win CC. Take out those falchions in your interceptor squad and put in halberds and tell me if they survive longer. Personally I wouldn't take any upgrades on an interceptor squad as they are purchased cheaper on other units. The only time I ever see taking falchions would be when accompanied by a Librarian for that sweet quicksilver buff, but even then... Whats better, upgrading 2(Or 4 depending on the unit) guys with +1 attack or giving a 10 man squad psybolt ammo?