Privateer Press Doing It Right

[Verilance]

There's nothing wrong with removing the caster kill as a scenario win option in any game that has an alternate victory condition.

Sure, it's a house rule, but if it makes the game more fun for you, then go for it!

perhaps I will pick up a copy for my son and I to try one weekend then, as that rule alone made me not want to play it.

[Kovnik Obama]

I think if more people red the fluff, they would understand that rule better. A warcaster in the Iron Kingdoms is equivalent to the a-bomb in our modern time. For a Nation, possessing one is a necessity, if one wants to compete with the others that have one. The fluff describes a battle at some point, between Sorscha, one Jack and a regiment of Iron Fang cavalry (about 100 heavy knights, if i recall correctly) agaisnt a force of 3000 Protectorate foot knights, heavy cavalry, hoplites and a few marshalled Jacks. The Protectorate got wiped out of course.

The fact is, as far as i recall, Caster Kill is not a ruled victory condition in the rulebook. It's a de facto victory condition based on the fact that warjacks get binded to a particular warcaster. When a caster dies, it's Jack shut down. If you have a second caster, that caster can reactivate the jack by moving in contact with its base. While it's sometimes still possible to win with only your troops, it's rare enough that almost everyone will throw in once they have lost a caster.

[eldargal]

I hate to derail this thread again, but I have to respond to this.

PP is more expensive on a per miniature basis. It does require less miniatures than 40k and WFB. But Necromunda requires even fewer miniatures and those miniatures are cheaper. Thus to argue that PP is cheaper than GW is erroneous. To argue that Warmachine is cheaper than 40k is accurate, but they are different games with different focuses so the point is moot.

Warmachine is not objective a 'better' game because it is a different sort of game, and it is a very good game.

The PP rep I spoke to said the staff find the rivalry between PP and GW fans absurd, that the PP staff are fans also, it is not just a case of 'yeah they played that because it was the only thing around'. They enjoyed it, and they still enjoy it. It is this kind of ridiculous snobbery that PP itself find ridiculous.

Having said all that, I may pick up a starter set myself and give Warmachine another chance, if I can find a group of people (beyond m brothers who play) that aren't anti-GW snobs. I quite like the look of Thyra, flame of sorrow, though she isn't available yet.

No, it's cheaper. You insert a subjective categorization (wargames/skirmish) in order to justify your stance. Weither models or not are cheaper is relatively unimportent, since the hobby has a whole is definetly cheaper. I have spent 150$ on my battlegroup in the last 2 years, have played (and won, but its irrelevant) local tourneys. Now how would that be possible with anything GW produces (since I have never seen a local Necro tourney, and anyways, the game itself is not designed to be tourney friendly).

On top of things, you could enter a MM tourney with both battlegroups in the Starter box, and be VERY competitive (both Sorscha and Kreoss are incredibly competitive casters, and the jacks they come with are pretty freaking good on top of things).

And yes, lots of PP staffers play 40K, since that game was the only one available for so long. Doesn't mean that they didn't produce a better game in just about every objective value one could agree on (so excluding subjective values like model appearances).

[depuce]

Ive seen you say GW is cheaper per model but you provide no example at all....

[eldargal]

Go back and read the thread, I provided at least two example, Space Hulk and Necromunda gangs. But if you want another, look at the battleboxes. Five models, fifty US that is ten USD a pop, or 6.1 pounds. Contrast to GW plastics which range from 1.8 pounds right up to 5.6 for Grey Knight terminators.

Enough of that though, I'm not going to post on this subject again.

[Kovnik Obama]

Enough of that though, I'm not going to post on this subject again.

Fine if you don't, but as in politics, leaving the table doesn't provide you any moral high ground.

if I can find a group of people (beyond m brothers who play) that aren't anti-GW snobs

Stating things as they are isn't being anti-GW. I don't consider you pro-GW simply because you indicated (and i beleive quite correctly) that GW is cheaper on a per model basis. I think you are pro-GW because you stated in this forum that ''you didn't like WarmaHordes rules'', without providing one exemple of said disliked rules, which, in conjonction with the fact that you seem to be okay with a horrible ruleset (current 40K), strikes me as being nothing else than a bias, either post-purchase rationalization or choice-supportive.

Warmachine is not objective a 'better' game because it is a different sort of game, and it is a very good game.

It is a wargame. That is all. There is nothing else to it. Chess and Checkers aren't two different sort of games simply because one has more 'models'. That alone allows for a comparison.One other proof would be that every objective values we could agree on to do an evaluation would apply on both games.

[C.of.N.finity]

The really stupid thing about the partisanship is that I spoke to a member of Privateer Press and he said a lot of the staff play GW games still

If I recall correctly, in an interview when warmachine was first released there was a huge piece of detialing how they grew up playing GW games and invented the game during lectures in college. They owe a lot to GW, but least they somewhat respect that rather than Mantic just trying to rip them off like a jilted lover.

However, PP does owe GW an apology on a few fronts. When the game first started, they talked about never doing army books and what a horrible system that was. For years they railed against an army book system and was one of the things they scolded GW for. The same was with other editions of rulesets, making people relearn the same game and changing the rules every few years. It was a couple of years later when I had enough, and started posting on their forums how they really needed army books, etc and maaaaan you could see the flames from an ocean away.

Now, of course, you do have army books and further editions of the rules. PP as a growing company is starting to realize the sins of the father weren't merely to hurt it's children, only to help them, yet they have never gone on record with any comments justifying their reliance on things they once espoused hate for.

And we all deserve an apology for every page 5. What a load of bullsh*t.

[Kovnik Obama]

However, PP does owe GW an apology on a few fronts. When the game first started, they talked about never doing army books and what a horrible system that was. For years they railed against an army book system and was one of the things they scolded GW for.

Been playing since Prime, never once saw someone on the forums criticize the army book method. They criticized the GW practice in failing to update every army book within reasonnable time, and how that showed a certain amount of contempt toward the consummers, which were left in ''competitive darkness'' for, sometimes, quite a few years.

The same was with other editions of rulesets, making people relearn the same game and changing the rules every few years

Uh. No one ever said anything bad about learning new rules... since just about every single units have special rules, and every new books until Legends (and now in Wrath) included new units type which obeyed particular rules.

All the players I've spoke to are happy about MK II streamlining and uniting the rules in one book. When Matt Wilson was asked when we should expect MK III, his answer was along the lines of '' NEVER ''. They have also proven they can update their entire range inside one year of the new edition. Thus, they have, on that point, validated the thrust their players put into them. If they were, in about 7 years, to go through MKIII, I would not expect my Protectorate to be left behind for a decade, which is all we players ask.

And we all deserve an apology for every page 5. What a load of bullsh*t.

Just about everything in your post was BS. God should apologize about your existence.

[scadugenga]

Just about everything in your post was BS. God should apologize about your existence.

While funny, that's probably not the best response.

Infinity has shown him(her?)self to be an inveterate troll, with slight occasional non-inflammatory comments that have good merit.

Just take the high road and ignore him/her. You'll have less stress.

For the record, though...this was one of Infinity's less inflammatory posts--as incorrect as he/she is about the subject matter at hand. (IE army books, rules revision, and the obligatory can't-understand-the-message-behind-page5 rant that 95% of anti-PP gamers seem to get stuck in their collective craw.)

[wittdooley]

Scad...I'd just ignore them both.

I've been noticing quite the influx of low post-count blowhards lately.