Is there a rule? Leading Question.

[s_harrington]

With the exception of Instant Death wounds, Sweeping Advance, and esoteric wargear that specificlly calls for base characteristics; is there any rule in existence that says that all other characteristics tests must be on a model's base characteristic without modifiers?

I expect the answer to be no, but I'm looking for a little confirmation before I move forward with my train of thought.

[Denzark]

I think you have covered all circumstances here. The answer is (to my mind) no. But only because outside the conditions you have set I can't think of something that would increase a base characteristic to test.

Interested to see where you are going with this - you're not thinking of Halberd Grey Knights versus JOTWW per chance?

[s_harrington]

I don't believe Halberds vs Jotww work, since the halberds say they only give the +2 for striking, not as a general stat increase.

No, I'm thinking more along the lines of thunder hammers and powerfists.
These actually just say the models Strength is doubled. It doesn't stipulate only being for close combat attacks.
In addition, it doesn't reduce their init to 1, only that their attacks are delivered at init 1.

The last two codex's have had wargear/powers that force strength tests. (Stern's power and the DE mindphase gauntlet)

Both of these tests vs a marine would be at strength 8 if I'm not mistaken.

There are a few other instances of this out there, but it's interesting to see how a well used piece of weaponry gains a whole new effect when then new codexs came out.


How do you effectively neuter Brother Captain Stern's Psychic power? Thunderhammer marines. Yes sir.

[Wildeybeast]

I don't believe Halberds vs Jotww work, since the halberds say they only give the +2 for striking, not as a general stat increase.

No, I'm thinking more along the lines of thunder hammers and powerfists.
These actually just say the models Strength is doubled. It doesn't stipulate only being for close combat attacks.
In addition, it doesn't reduce their init to 1, only that their attacks are delivered at init 1.

The last two codex's have had wargear/powers that force strength tests. (Stern's power and the DE mindphase gauntlet)

Both of these tests vs a marine would be at strength 8 if I'm not mistaken.

There are a few other instances of this out there, but it's interesting to see how a well used piece of weaponry gains a whole new effect when then new codexs came out.


How do you effectively neuter Brother Captain Stern's Psychic power? Thunderhammer marines. Yes sir.

You seem to be applying the rules in a rather biased way there. I'd agree that you are only I1 when striking with the weapon but then on that basis you also only double your strength when striking with it. I know the rules don't actually say that, but in the intro to close combat wepaons it does say that these bonuses apply to the models using them i.e. actually hitting something with them. I think in this case you have to go down the route of RAI - clearly the bonuses only actually apply when using the wepon. If a pyschic power forces you to take a strength test, this is to represent a power trying to rip apart your body at a molecular level or something similar. Having a big glove is not going to help you with that. You would not claim that a model with a lascannon takes S tests on a 9, so why would you do so when armed with a thunder hammer?

Weapon bonuses work differently to that of wargear in that they don't actually modify your stats, you only get the bonus when using the weapon (e.g. shooting or combat). So for example, having two hand weapons does not actually give you another attack to your profile, merely a bonus one in combat whereas a Tau battlesuit does actually modify your strength and toughness on your profile.

[Tynskel]

read pages 3-10 in the main rulebook.

[Wildeybeast]

read pages 3-10 in the main rulebook.

Actually, its only pages 6-8 that deal with charcteristics and page 8 that deals with characteristic tests. That only tells you how to make them, it doesn't specifically deal with this issue. Having re-read that section, along with close combat wepaon section, I have to conclude that weapons are not modifying your characteristic, merely giving you a bonus in combat.

[s_harrington]

Ok, I went back and read pages 6-8, then pages 3-10, and then the section on close combat weapons.

I haven't found what you guys are pointing out to me though. I'm not trying to be difficult, I genuinely can't find anything that says modifiers from weapons are for close combat only.

I do agree that most weapons are carefully worded as to make sure this is how they work, but either the powerfist was badly written or....


I did find another weapon that installs non-CC effects. Please review this and decide wether it has any bearing here.

GK Daemonblade: Deathlust, Dark Ressurection, and Familiar.
You'll notice that the blade gives abilities, USRs, etc outside of Closecombat.

Thanks for taking the time to look this over and consider it.

Sean

[Nabterayl]

I think what you're overlooking is the fact that power fists only double the user's Strength. Models only use a power fist when making close combat attacks.

[Wildeybeast]

I don't have the GK codex, so I don't know how those rules work I'm afraid. I agree entirely with you that there does not seem to be a specific wording covering this. I've checked the FAQ as well and there is nothing there.
However, I think the powerfist wording is badly done. It is clear that the iniative penalty only applies in CC, but he strenght bonus is not clear merely saying "it doubles the users strength". You can make a case to say that the strength applies at all times, and maybe this was GW's intent, but for my personal opinion I would say that since other 'standard' weapon bonuses only apply when the weapons are being used, this is the case also. It just doesn't seem to make any sense that the strength bonus would apply at all times, but not the iniative penalty!

Perhaps further clarification can be found in the section 'a normal and special weapon' which states that power fists, lightning claws and thunder hammers only confer their bonuses to attacks made with that weapon, which to me would say that the S bonus would not apply to characteristic tests.

Do you have any other examples of characteristic modifiers?

[s_harrington]

Outside of the Daemonblade in Codex: Grey Knights, I found one other example, Abbadon's weapons.
The +4 to strength is actually included in the his profile in a visible manner. "4 (8)"

Outside of these 2, and the powerfist, every single weapon I've seen that has a characteristic boost, says it only works in combat, very specificly.

*chuckles*

Regardless of how this turns out, gotta give me credit for finding the Abbadon example.

Nabterayl, I'm not ignoring your assesment. Your point of contention is actually what is being discussed right now. The statement; the effects of weapons only happen when your making a close combat attack, is what is under debate since there isn't actually a rule that states that.

Each and every weapon, except the three above, specificly call out they can only be used in close combat. The Daemonblade is very obvious that it can be used outside of combat. Abaddon's weapons, I think, will be seen as giving him the str bonus outside of combat. So, why not a powerfist? Perhaps the authors did write the powerfist badly, but I cannot know that for certain since I didn't write the book, nor asked the authors. I would be doing nothing more then guessing if I looked at it from a RAI, when there are other exceptions in existence that are similar in nature.