Is there a rule? Leading Question.

[Tynskel]

the point is that weapons don't change your initiative of the user in the case of Initiative tests, unless there is a test that is required of the model at the time of using the weapon. (I am unaware of any such test)

However, there are plenty of weapons and wargear that have an effective duration to the initiative.
Ex.
Lash Whips make your opponent I1 during that assault phase. This is great in combination with Acid Blood checks, because the test is taken during the assault phase. As a specific example: A tyrant with Lash Whips and Acid Blood taking 1 wound can decimate a squad of marines, due to every model in base to base taking the Initiative test at I1.


Thunder Hammers make models I1, ect

[s_harrington]

I'm pretty confused by your answer Tynskel.
If you would clarify, I would appreciate it.

Here's what I'm confused about:
I'm not sure what initiative or initiative tests have to do with the thread.
I'm not sure what 'effective duration' has to do with the thread since we're talking about weapons with no duration given in their rules.
I'm not sure why a Thunder Hammer would drop a model's initiative to 1. I thought it only made them deliver their blows at initiative 1, not change the characteristic.

Things I am not confused about:
Lash Whips + Acid Blood is a nasty revenge combo, and I agree that it works.

Thanks



Sean

[Tynskel]

I'm pretty confused by your answer Tynskel.
If you would clarify, I would appreciate it.

Here's what I'm confused about:
I'm not sure what initiative or initiative tests have to do with the thread.
I'm not sure what 'effective duration' has to do with the thread since we're talking about weapons with no duration given in their rules.
I'm not sure why a Thunder Hammer would drop a model's initiative to 1. I thought it only made them deliver their blows at initiative 1, not change the characteristic.

Things I am not confused about:
Lash Whips + Acid Blood is a nasty revenge combo, and I agree that it works.

Thanks



Sean

Initiative tests are a type of characteristic test.

I am sorry I wasn't clear: weapons that don't have a duration are simply instantaneous. If they do not state they apply to anything else, then that is it. This even prevents special abilities, such as the halberd's +2, ect.

Thunderhammers make your opponent Initiative 1, and lasts through to the next round. That's a change in Initiative characteristic.

[Nabterayl]

Nabterayl, I'm not ignoring your assesment. Your point of contention is actually what is being discussed right now. The statement; the effects of weapons only happen when your making a close combat attack, is what is under debate since there isn't actually a rule that states that.

Page 42 specifies that the benefits of the weapons described work only when actually wielding or using the weapon. That's why a model with a boltgun and lightning claw doesn't get to re-roll bolter wounds.

[s_harrington]

Thank you Tynskel, I understand your meaning now, and I find I can't dispute anything you've said.

Though I'm still working on those 3 weapons that have permanent duration effects.


Oh, Nabteryal, I read the lightning claw entry. Man that was written poorly, huh? All the other entries talk about rerolls for wounds or hits in close combat but they left it off the lightning claw.
Silly GW.

Anyways, I did as you suggested and read page 42. Twice. I'm still not able to find any passage that says that a weapons benefits can only happen during close combat. If you could guide me to the paragraph, I'd appreciate it.

It's interesting though, because if there is a passage that says that, it would invalidate Abbadon the Despoilers strength characteristic in the Chaos Marine codex except during combat.
In addition, it would only let an inquisitor with a daemonblade benefit from Feel No Pain and +1 Mastery Level during close combat and not during the rest of the turn. (Neither of those weapons outright state they work outside of close combat, but they don't state they don't either.)
Curiously, this ruling would also allow an Inquisitor to ignore the part of Rage USR imparted by the Daemonblade, the part that forces movement in the movement phase.

One way or another, were going to figure out if a) The powerfist is stronger then we thought, or b) Drachnyen/Talon of Horus and a Daemonblade are weaker then we thought.



Oh, thanks again for keeping this thread civil. It keeps it interesting.

[Nabterayl]

You're looking for the third full paragraph on the page, which states "These include more complex and powerful weapons that enhance the wielder's combat skills and confer bonuses, and sometimes penalties, to the models using them." Cross-reference page 35, "All engaged models will ... use any special close combat attack they have."

In other words, to get any benefit from a weapon (close combat or otherwise; the rules don't technically distinguish between the two), you have to be "using" or "wielding" it, which is different from having it on your person. If you have a power fist, but use your power sword, your attacks ignore armor but strike at normal Initiative and Strength, because a power fist only doubles the "user's" Strength.

This is why lightning claws don't affect shooting attacks, and why if you have a poisoned weapon and a power weapon you cannot have poisoned power attacks (it's not enough to simply be "armed with" a power weapon, per the fourth full paragraph; you also have to be "using" or "wielding" it per the third).

[s_harrington]

Haven't given up, just trying to find the time to further study and discuss this.

[Wildeybeast]

There's not a lot to study mate, you only get charateristic bonuses when actually using the weapon to shoot/hit something. Extra toughness from armour, bikes etc is always there since you are always 'using' the bike/armour.

[s_harrington]

To those that haven't posted yet: I hope you take the time to read this and keep an open mind. I know a lot of people immediately adopt the mindset that they must defeat every rules question posted, but I really believe you might find this an entertaining debate if you read it in full and not just try to pick it apart without doing the due diligence.

Ok, I've gone through it over and over. I've followed every reference that everyone has given me. So far no one has been able to pinpoint anywhere in the rules that says "benefits from weapons only occur when they are used in close combat".

I agree, up till now, that's how everyone has played it, but that doesn't mean its right.

Wildeybeast, in response to your last post, I would ask you take a look further down this post at the section about the Daemonblade, more specificly the power called Vampyre. This will actually show you that characteristics can be added by a close combat weapon and stick around outside of combat.

Nabterayl has tried to lead a persuasive counter argument, but each thing he's shown discusses the fact that when a person uses a weapon in combat, there are benefits applied to it. It's never actually said that effects cannot be applied outside of close combat. I've seen assumptions made from this, but as we all know, assumptions can be wrong. Hell, up till now I made the same assumption. And I've been playing since 1995.

Now had the Powerfist been an isolated instance, I would have written it off as an author's mistake, but in fact I have found two more incidents, one from 4th edition, and another from the latest codex in 5th edition, Grey Knights

If we say that the ruling applies to the 4th edition Chaos Codex, then we acknowledge that Abaddon's stat line is incorrectly printed and we have an illegal character.

But then again, it is a 4th edition codex so we can also make an assumption that it's one of the wrinkles between editions.

Before I continue, I want to reinforce the fact that every other weapon in the entire line of rules, be it from the rule book or from the codexs, has the words "when used in close combat" or something similar. The only exceptions are Abaddon's weapons, Powerfists, Daemon Weapons, and unfortunately the lightning claw. I firmly believe the lightning claw is a error since it tries to alter the abilities of another weapon and not its user.

Now we run into the daemon blade in this edition's Codex: Grey Knights, which is what triggered this line of thought for me.

The Daemonweapon is clearly placed in the weapon's section of the Wargear portion of the codex. So we can establish it is a weapon, without a doubt. 5 of the 9 powers of this blade have a direct bearing here.

1. Warpflame: In this case the model receives +3 strength. The wording carefully states that it is only applied to attacks made by the weapon. So we can see the author (all other things aside) isn't a moron and just forgot for other purposes. I've listed this here so we can see the distinction is made.

2. Vampyre: This heals the user wounds in return for causing them. It can take the user above his normal number up to 10. Do these extra wounds only exist in close combat and then vanish after close combat is over? Well perhaps we can make an exception just this once... although the wording clearly says "its wielder immediately gains +1 wound (to a maximum of 10)." and wounds are a characteristic. Let’s move on.

3. Deathlust: Here the bearer gains the USRs Furious Charge and Rage. FC is easy enough, it only occurs during the assault phase. Rage on the other hand has an effect every single phase! During the movement, you must move. During the shooting phase it controls your model if you decide to run. During the assault phase it controls your consolidate moves. Very clearly this happens outside of assault. Let's move on and see what else is evident.

4. Dark Ressurection: The bearer of the Daemonblade gains the USRs of Feel No Pain and Eternal Warrior. If we follow the traditional model, the bearer would only be able to use these in close combat. Seems lame then, but we'll let this one go as it is feasible that it might only work in Close Combat.

5. Familiar: The bearer counts as one Mastery Level higher than normal. Wow. Pretty cool. I can see how the indirect benefits of this only help the model in close combat, (powering his force weapon) but, well there it is.

The other powers for this weapon all directly state they have a bearing on close combat only and are very obviously not for other phases, but I want to repeat, they are all clear that they only work in close combat.
So now I ask, why would powers 2 thru 5 each not state they only effect the model in close combat when the other 5 powers do state they only work in close combat?

I'd venture a guess and say: because they affect the model outside of close combat.

For me, that establishes the rule that effects of weapons do work outside of close combat.

Before you start yelling about how that would destroy the game and all the powers of weapons are not meant for any other phase, remember, there are only 3 weapons (as far as I've found) that do not specifically state "this power is only used in close combat". Well 4, but I count a thunderhammer as a powerfist in this debate. Why would they have been so careful to include the exception on every single weapon to leave it off of these?

I think that is all I have to say on this, and I'll take this chance to thank Nabterayl, Tynskel, and Wildeybeast for posing thoughtful and well researched answers, those debates pushed me to examine this from more angles then I started with, and eventually led me to the above.

I'll also thank Denzark for being brave enough to answer my original post and pave the way for me to continue along this line of thinking.

Thanks for keeping it civil gents, and thanks for pushing me to look harder for the answers!

Sean

[thecactusman17]

OP, I would only allow that argument if your thundrehammer/powerfist/chainfist/eviscerator model was also always I1 regardless of circumstance.

Basically, outside of actually rolling to wound in CC, they are base strength unless the model itself would increase S by +x, where x is a defined integer. For example, combat drugs which last the entire game.