Historical Parallels With The Empire And The Real World

[fantasard]

Ultramarine Fan, you are so right! We have been studying and teaching History for 30 years plus, and Warhammer combines the history with a load of fun...monsters, Pigeon Bombs and the like!

[BrokenWing]

Taking my historian hat off for a moment, this is my least favorite aspect of Fantasy. As a huge fan of creative fiction and a writer by hobby, I *hate* the laziness of just cutting and pasting historical nations and peoples into a Fantasy setting and calling it your own. I've gotten over it a bit over the years, but it's definitely not my favorite part.

[eldargal]

GW have done it rather well though. How many people even realise Ulthuan = Britain? Bretonnia isn't just France either, it is a mix of French and Arthurian mythology, the Empire is more than just the Holy Roman Empire with magic, the Lizardmen certainly aren't just reptilian Maya etc.

[BrokenWing]

Honestly everyone I've talked to about it has seen the parallels plain as day. What isn't taken from history is generally taken from standard Fantasy, with the exception of Chaos. There are some interesting spins that make elements of the Fantasy fluff unique, but I really wish they had put more effort into the background when they made it.

It's not as if I don't really enjoy Fantasy, but I'm not about to say that the fluff is my favorite part of it. That said, Fantasy fluff is alot better than the fluff for some other games.

[condottiere]

Ulthuan is Atlantis and Melnibone; the rest are obvious, though I'll mention that Tilea is late Renaissance Italy, Orcs are football rowdies, the Dwarves are Nordic-Saxons and the Chaos Dwarves supposedly represent politically incorrect stereotypes, like bankers and hedge fund managers.

[Necron_Lord]

GW have done it rather well though. How many people even realise Ulthuan = Britain? Bretonnia isn't just France either, it is a mix of French and Arthurian mythology, the Empire is more than just the Holy Roman Empire with magic, the Lizardmen certainly aren't just reptilian Maya etc.

I will have to disagree about the High Elves = the British. Britain has been a small fry, relatively speaking until the middle of the 18th century and it lasted for about a century and a half, and had seen its heyday by the time of the second Boer War. No other country has come close to having that sort of power since. The only similarities I see is that it is insular, has a world-spanning maritime empire, and had overseas colonialists rebel and go it alone. What made Britain a power was the industrial revolution, which is more suited to the Dwarves, naval supremacy, and financial supremacy. The elves have been the most magical of beings (except for the slaan) and lost their power through Civil War and a hubristic war with the Dwarves. Britain lost its power by cosmopolitan business and financial practices, and an over-extension of military commitments to protect the overseas investments of the cosmopolitan 'British' investors.

I think it is like what you said, there is a lot more going on than some of the more obvious inspirations one sees with a casual look.

[Chronowraith]

GW have done it rather well though. How many people even realise Ulthuan = Britain? Bretonnia isn't just France either, it is a mix of French and Arthurian mythology, the Empire is more than just the Holy Roman Empire with magic, the Lizardmen certainly aren't just reptilian Maya etc.

I've always likened the Brettonians to Chretien de Troyes Arthurian legends moreso then say Sir Thomas Malory.

I do think you hit the key here. GW certainly took components of historical cultures across the world but they didn't do so lock stock and barrel. Likening the Empire to the Holy Roman Empire is a vague generalization at best and one that should only ever be used carefully. I think the most clear-cut example would be the Tomb Kings and even they possess some pretty important differences.

The importance of the Nile River in ancient Egypt doesn't really translate for the Tomb Kings. Certainly there were rivers in Khemri but none of the fluff seems to put as much importance on any of them that is obvious in the hieroglyphs at Karnaak, Thebes/Luxor, etc.

Indeed many cultures are represented in the world that do not have armies such as Araby, Nippon, and Cathay.

Personally, I would like very much to see some of these other cultures represented on the tabletop one day.

[quinn]

Honestly everyone I've talked to about it has seen the parallels plain as day. What isn't taken from history is generally taken from standard Fantasy, with the exception of Chaos. There are some interesting spins that make elements of the Fantasy fluff unique, but I really wish they had put more effort into the background when they made it.

It's not as if I don't really enjoy Fantasy, but I'm not about to say that the fluff is my favorite part of it. That said, Fantasy fluff is alot better than the fluff for some other games.

It could be argued that the inspiration for Chaos was influenced by Michael Moorcock. I was a gamer and a Fantasy fan back when Citadel miniatures and GW got started and a lot of their fantasy stuff was obviously taken from D&D (whose players were their main customers), who had taken from Tolkien, who had taken from myth, etc..but there wasn't a whole lot of original Fantasy work available back then. I do see Fahfred and the Grey Mouser influence in the Gotrek and Felix stories of course, and GW continues to liberally 'borrow' ideas from myth and popular culture, but I think they have done a reasonable job of creating their own world for us to game in.

[Necron_Lord]

It could be argued that the inspiration for Chaos was influenced by Michael Moorcock. I was a gamer and a Fantasy fan back when Citadel miniatures and GW got started and a lot of their fantasy stuff was obviously taken from D&D (whose players were their main customers), who had taken from Tolkien, who had taken from myth, etc..but there wasn't a whole lot of original Fantasy work available back then. I do see Fahfred and the Grey Mouser influence in the Gotrek and Felix stories of course, and GW continues to liberally 'borrow' ideas from myth and popular culture, but I think they have done a reasonable job of creating their own world for us to game in.

Chaosium had Stormbringer back in the day, which was role-playing in the Elric novels by Michael Moorcock. I believe that they (the Elric heroes and deities) were in an edition of Deities and Demigods as well, but were pulled when Michael Moorcock found out about it. I could be wrong, but I do have that recollection for some reason.

[eldargal]

See what I mean about them doing such a great job people don't realise?:P That came straight from a former senior design team staffer.

I will have to disagree about the High Elves = the British. Britain has been a small fry, relatively speaking until the middle of the 18th century and it lasted for about a century and a half, and had seen its heyday by the time of the second Boer War. No other country has come close to having that sort of power since. The only similarities I see is that it is insular, has a world-spanning maritime empire, and had overseas colonialists rebel and go it alone. What made Britain a power was the industrial revolution, which is more suited to the Dwarves, naval supremacy, and financial supremacy. The elves have been the most magical of beings (except for the slaan) and lost their power through Civil War and a hubristic war with the Dwarves. Britain lost its power by cosmopolitan business and financial practices, and an over-extension of military commitments to protect the overseas investments of the cosmopolitan 'British' investors.

I think it is like what you said, there is a lot more going on than some of the more obvious inspirations one sees with a casual look.

Ulthuan is Atlantis and Melnibone; the rest are obvious, though I'll mention that Tilea is late Renaissance Italy, Orcs are football rowdies, the Dwarves are Nordic-Saxons and the Chaos Dwarves supposedly represent politically incorrect stereotypes, like bankers and hedge fund managers.