'ard Boyz GKs

[CoolKidRoc]

What are people doing for GK in 'ard Boyz? What's the best list for them at that point level?

Here's one I came up with, does it suck or is there something better?

Crowe
Libby, Quicksilver, Sanctuary, Shrouding

Purifier x6, Halberds x3, Master Crafted Hammer, Psycannon x2 - Razorback, Twin Las, Dozer Blades
Purifier x6, Halberds x3, Master Crafted Hammer, Psycannon x2 - Razorback, Twin Las, Dozer Blades
Purifier x6, Halberds x3, Master Crafted Hammer, Psycannon x2 - Razorback, Twin HBolter, Dozer Blades
Purifier x6, Halberds x3, Master Crafted Hammer, Psycannon x2 - Razorback, Twin HBolter, Dozer Blades
Terminators x10, Thawn, Psycannon x2, Halberds x9

Psyfleman Dread
Psyfleman Dread
Psyfleman Dread

= 2.5k points

[Tynskel]

A pie plate army will end you day. I suggest taking some cheap inquisitorial units. Split the Terminators unto two squads. Drop two purifiers and Crowe. Either take the inquisitor special character, to make cheap scoring units or add a grand master.

[DarkLink]

No reason to split the Terminators, GKs have Combat Squads. And this list isn't lacking MSU qualities anyways, so having a single big powerful CC unit is a good thing. You do need to put a pair of Hammers in the Terminators, though. I would try and get a Brotherhood Banner as well.

You also need more than 3 powers on the Librarian. Never take less than 4.



And isn't that list like 250pts short of 2500?




But anyways, this list has problems. At 2500pts, 24 power armor models won't last long. And since most of your firepower is centered in the Purifiers, and said Purifiers can't shoot out of their vehicles, you're going to have a lot of stuff get killed. Plus you only have 4 Rhinos that'll get killed quickly. I've found 4 is barely enough for 1850-2000pt games.

Basically, Crowe sucks, and MSU Purifier spam isn't as great as some of the internet minds that just jumped on the GK bandwagon think it is. GKs aren't designed to be an MSU army. You can pull it off, but GKs just don't play that way. MSU lists like this rely on psycannons to kill everything, and hope the opponent doesn't return fire. If that doesn't work, your units will get shot up, and once you lose 2-3 guys a unit you can no longer muster any real close combat force that matters.

Grey Knights are designed to shoot up their opponent, then finish them off in close combat. MSU lists are very poor at this, because while they have lots of shooting they lack the ability to concentrate enough close combat power to finish off a tough opponent.

Of course, this isn't to say that you can't have a couple 5-man units to fit some more rhinos on the board, and purifiers are great at this. I just wouldn't build a list around it.

Then taking Crowe himself has all sorts of issues, especially at this point level. GK HQs are force multipliers, with all those psychic powers and grenades and the grand strategy and the like. Crowe does none of this. He denies you a valuable slot that should be filled with a much, much better HQ, and does nothing for his 150pts. Purifiers are good, but not that good.






And I agree with Tynskel here. For this sort of competition, your second HQ should be Coteaz. Always. I also think I prefer the GM over a Librarian, as the GM brings lots of things but the Librarian is basically just a walking psychic hood with shrouding. Librarians are awesome, don't get me wrong, but I think that you'll typically get more use out of the GM/Coteaz combo.





On a side note, here's an outline of a list I was thinking about:

Grand Master, Rad/Psykotroke/Blind Grenades, 3 Skulls...225

Coteaz...100

2x6 Purifiers, 4 Halberds, 2 Psycannons, Rhino...424

10 Terminators, 2 Psycannons, Brotherhood Banner...475

2x10 GKSS, 2 Psycannons, Hammer, Rhino....540

2x5 Acolytes, 3 meltaguns, Rhino...180

3x Psyrifle Dreads...405

That puts me at 2349, so I have 151pts to spend on something. Hmmmm, that's almost enough points to trade my GM for Driago, and take a Techmarine with Grenades. That's something to think about.

[Tynskel]

Yeah, that's pretty much what went through my head.

Spam- people get this idea that if one unit is good, then a million is better. That's not the case. Got to have some variety with you redundancy.

[CoolKidRoc]

So where is Coteaz in a list like that?

Is he walking with the terminators and GM.

Do you put him in a Rhino, and Deepstrike the Termies and GM?

Having a hard time imagining how it would deploy and play? Any suggettions?

As for the extra points, what about another acolyte squad w/3 meltas, a Jokearo and Coteaz sitting in a Chimera.

That'd be 150 pts there putting the list at 2,499

Thanks!

[Tynskel]

The list darkling is difficult to play, but a very good list, when you know how it works. It is reliant on synergies as opposed to a super unit.

[DarkLink]

Right. The Terminator/Paladin unit (I haven't settled on which I prefer yet, it depends on the point level and HQ I take) is at the heart of the list, and everything is kinda built around that.

I typically deploy both Coteaz and the Librarian/GM with the Terminator/Paladin unit. Between all those Hammerhands, Sanctuary on Coteaz, and the Librarian psychic powers or Grand Master's grenades, plus a Brotherhood Banner, there aren't many things in the game that can stand up to that unit in CC. It forms the core of my list, and is usually central to my deployment.

That unit does have weaknesses, however, such as poor invulnerable saves. Armies like Guard have enough high AP weapons to take out 10 Terminators. This is where the rest of the list comes in.



This army is kind of a combined arms approach. The psyrifle dreads do their thing, they're pretty straightforward. I identify the main vehicle targets I need to kill, be it fire support vehicles like DE Ravagers or other Dreadnoughts, or key transports, or key enemy units (long fangs, Nob bikerz, etc), and just let loose. And since I can move and shoot I don't have to keep them in the backfield. I can advance them to get Reinforced Aegis coverage, or put them on flanks to create a crossfire and hit enemy side armor. Pretty straightforward.

With the enemy vehicles stunned/destroyed by the Dreads, I then use the GKSS as a sort of screening unit. They move where they need to go, use their psycannons to pop vehicles or storm bolters to thin out infantry, all while kiting the enemy. They rove around wherever they're needed, and are there to force the enemy to run the gauntlet if he wants to close with me. At game's end they can move to claim objectives or go and assault weakened enemy units. For mobility purposes, they can hop in and out of their Rhinos as need be.

With all the enemy vehicles stunned or destroyed by GKSS/Dread fire, the Terminators march up the board. Since my opponent almost certainly can't face them in CC, my opponent must avoid them. I control wherever my Terminators are. To ensure they stay alive, I take advantage of cover as much as I can, and use Rhinos to create cover where need be. With a bit of skill, you can almost always get a 4+ cover save, and if you have a Librarian that becomes a 3+. That makes the Terminators much harder to kill by shooting.

On top of that, since my entire army is constantly contributing their firepower to the fight, my opponent is overloaded with targets. He can pour fire into the Terminators, but to do that he has to leave my Dreads and GKSS untouched, and since they make up the bulk of my shooting my opponent will suffer a lot more casualties in the short run for ignoring them. If my opponent ignores the Terminators and targets my other units, then my Terminators can march up in his face and my opponent will have difficulty dealing with them by shooting late in the game. Just the presence of the Terminators means my opponent must deal with them somehow, but the rest of my list actually does more damage to him in the short term so my opponent is stuck between a rock and a hard place. The fact that Terminators have psycannons as well just means that the Terminators are not wasted points in the turns before they see combat.

Lastly, the Acolyte squads give me a couple of things the rest of the list is lacking. My list requires me to concentrate my force. The GKSS and Terminators act mostly as one unit, and are at their best when I can keep them relatively close together. This makes it difficult to make last minute dashes to objectives. Cheap scoring henchmen solve that problem.

Additionally, GKs lack meltaguns. Psycannons are not the most reliable way to kill Land Raiders, and Land Raiders full of THSS Terminators are one of the few things that can kill my Terminator unit. So the Acolytes have meltaguns. I don't take Servitors simply because I want to be able to move and shoot effectively. A small Acolyte unit with a couple meltaguns is cheap, effective, scoring thanks to Coteaz, but such a weak unit that unless they are an immediate threat my opponent will likely ignore them. In some games my wimpy henchmen units are some of my only models left.

On top of that, the Acolytes give me a few more vehicles. Both Rhinos and Razorbacks work for varying reasons, but either way I get more targets for my opponent's anti-tank, and more opportunities to create cover for my other units and tank shock stuff and otherwise mess with my opponent.



So, basically, I have a rock-hard CC unit that is tough to kill with shooting and almost impossible to kill in CC (I've only lost it in CC in one game, where I messed up and let multiple units of genestealers assault it and they wiped each other out). I then have weaker but more numerous GKSS who also get a lot of psycannon shots, and can kill off weakened enemy units in CC very well and are much more mobile than the Terminators thanks to vehicles. The Dreads are then in my backfield removing a vehicle or two per turn. To top it off, I have a couple roving Acolyte squads to block enemy movement, take far objectives, provide cheap scoring and cover saves, and to kill anything that's tough enough to make it past all the psycannons, storm bolters and Dreads with enough potency left to

Oh, and pretty much everything is scoring. So that's always a plus.

And within the list, the HQs are basically just force multipliers. Librarians and GMs provide different buffs, and Coteaz brings a bunch of awesome special rules, make the Acolytes scoring and is quite the little bad$%& himself.



That's my ~2000pt army approach. For 2500pts, we can fit in a couple extra squads, in particular Purifiers. Purifiers bring very cheap psycannons, cheap Halberds so they can still fight in CC despite their low numbers, bring more vehicles, and are generally awesome. And Cleansing Flame allows me to deal with some difficult enemy units very effectively, like Blob Squads. Purifiers basically become the front wave of my screening units, performing a similar task as the GKSS, but since they're not scoring I don't need to worry about sacrificing them nearly as much.


The two main things I'm still theorizing on are the Librarian/GM choice, and the Paladin/Terminator choice.



All that said, because of the flexibility of Grey Knight units (as every one can move, shoot and assault effectively) this list is inherently flexible. Just because the above tactics are what the list is designed for, and my default setup, doesn't mean that I'm trapped into this. Almost all the army can deepstrike, and I have plenty of options for dealing with unusual circumstances. In one game I might put my Rhinos front and center to absorb firepower, then mop up with my Terminators, and in another I might charge the Terminators forward and let them get shot to pieces while the rest of my army takes objectives relatively uncontested. In some games I might let my Dreads get into combat even though they normally shoot a lot, in order to tie up key enemy units (like Bloodcrushers or Genestealers that I haven't had an opportunity to kill).

[CoolKidRoc]

Thanks Darklink,

That's explains a lot.

What would you do to take the list to 1850? Got a tournament coming in September I need to start getting read for too.

[Denied]

Although I respect and agree a lot with Darklink and the posts he makes I have varying views and opinions to army builds then he does. Don't be confused a purifier centered list CAN be good in the right hands and they have advantages, it just requires a different play style then some other lists. I tend to think purifier centered lists work better in the 1500 or below range as Crowe is a cheap HQ option (not compared to Inquisitors, but still cheap) and gives you access to a powerful unit for troops.

This being said once you pass that 1500 point marker a Purifier list just doesn't hold up to the other things you can bring to the table.

I don't like to bring henchmen builds just because I don't like inquisition units, I like the idea of a pure Grey Knight build. My options for HQ's tend to be a GM and a Libby usually both are joined to a squad of terminators. I also speak the glory that is a Purgation squad! These things are devastating when played right. You deploy a 5 man squad with 4 Psycannons as close to the center of the board as you can in an area where they have complete cover and then you don't move and Astral Aim they hell out of enemy forces blasting them with 16 Psycannon shots a turn. It wipes units off the board if left unchecked and if the enemy spends the time to focus them they usually are forced to move over and deal with them (if they don't have barrage weapons) giving you plenty of time to blast them apart.

That being said always have a minimum of 2 Psyfile Dreads and if at all possible always shoot for 3 (perhaps making one venerable so you can keep a Purgation squad).

A List I would shoot for with 2500pts (don't have my Codex around to actually work out values at the moment) would have 3 Psyfile Dreads (one venerable), a 5 man 4xPsycannon Purgation squad, a Libby with 4 Powers, a GM (same as DarkLink's) a 10man Terminator squad with a Brotherhood Banner, 2 Psycannons, 2 Hammers, and the rest Halbreds and then fill it in with 10 man Strike Squads in Rhinos with 2 Psycannons and a hammer each. If possible maybe through in a squad of Purifiers... but I don't think you will have the points for it. You should be able to get like 3 Strike Squads if I am not mistaken.

Don't forget one of the biggest advantages to Grey Knights is the amount of shooting the army can do and not just with Psycannons and Dreads, but with regulars dudes and their Storm Bolters! The amount of storm bolter shots you get are going to damage to any bodies forces.

[CoolKidRoc]

Ok guys, so using the feedback, here's what I've got so far.

-=HQ=-
Grand Master, Blind, Psyco, Rad nades and 3x skulls - 225 pts

Coteaz - 100 pts

-=Elites=-
Ven Psyfledread - 195 pts

-=Troops=-
10 Termies, 2 psycannons, Banner, All Halberds - 475 pts

10 Strike Squad, 2 psycannons, master craft demon hammer, psybolts, rhino with dozer blade - 300 pts

10 Strike Squad, 2 psycannons, master craft demon hammer, psybolts, rhino with dozer blade - 300 pts

10 Strike Squad, 2 psycannons, master craft demon hammer, psybolts, rhino with dozer blade - 300 pts

5 Inquisitor Acolytes, 3 meltas, Chimera w/ Flamer - 105 pts

-=Heavy=-
5 Purgation, 4 psycannons, razorback with dozer blade - 230 pts

Psyfleman Dread - 135 pts

Psyfleman Dread - 135 pts

Total 2,500