SoB WD codex 'leaked'

[Calypso2ts]

The first was that Celestians have increased in power, not decreased, in their assigned role as the storm troopers of the Orders Militant.

Except they were never an assault winning unit, they are a tarpitting unit for really dangerous assault elements. See how they weather against TH/SS terminators now...or a MC

The second was that the new Acts of Faith are worth using even when compared to the old Acts of Faith.

Except having 3.5 Faith dice a turn means you have to throw all 3 at the unit to get that 87% chance (assuming a 4+) to make it and that is the only AoF you get that turn plus you cannot use it in your opponents turn.

The third was that a squad of sisters celestian can reasonably be expected to assault a squad of tactical space marines and win.

Which means nothing at all, because they are not there to win, they are there to hold out for 1 SM turn so you can shoot them to death next.

...convincingly defeat an equal number of terminators, or vanguard veterans, or Grey Knights, or Grey Hunters.

I do not want defeat I want tarpit. No SoB assault unit will ever out assault these options at comparable point costs.

Others may disagree with me on this particular point (evidently SMC does, for instance), but I'm sure we all agree that certain match-ups should go a certain way, even if we might disagree as to which match-ups those are.

I concur, I just want to lose slowly not quickly.

Second, battle sisters have always been represented as sustaining significant casualties. I think the significance of that is not that battle sisters are poor soldiers, but rather that battle sisters are willing to sustain significant casualties.

This is an interesting take on things, I would definitely entertain this idea.

Now, a squad of Battle Sisters outshooting or outassaulting Tacticals...

They out shoot them now.

[Nabterayl]

Except they were never an assault winning unit, they are a tarpitting unit for really dangerous assault elements. See how they weather against TH/SS terminators now...or a MC

That may be their current function (EDIT: though I'm confused why you would pay for celestians if you only wanted a tarpit unit). However, I contend that their current function is at odds with their fluff. Fluff-wise (I contend), sisters celestian have always been the storm troopers of the Orders Militant (that is, [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shock_troops]storm troopers[/url], not [url=http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Storm_Trooper]storm troopers[/url], who are not actually storm troopers at all in the classical sense). Insofar as they are becoming more of a storm trooper unit and less of a tarpit unit, I contend that their role is becoming more, and not less, fluffy.

Except having 3.5 Faith dice a turn means you have to throw all 3 at the unit to get that 87% chance (assuming a 4+) to make it and that is the only AoF you get that turn plus you cannot use it in your opponents turn.

Assuming a 4+, yes indeed. But new celestians without faith in an assault will now perform comparably to or better than old celestians with faith, unless you are trying to tarpit an enemy with a large number of power weapon attacks (against which, I would contend, the fluff-appropriate result is for the sisters to lose anyway). And at least in some circumstances, new celestians who expend one renewable faith point outperform old celestians who expend three non-renewable faith points. Is it the same as the old unit? No. Is it what I want celestians to be? Not quite. But is it improvement? I'd say yes.

Which means nothing at all, because they are not there to win, they are there to hold out for 1 SM turn so you can shoot them to death next.

I do not want defeat I want tarpit. No SoB assault unit will ever out assault these options at comparable point costs.

Why do you want that? Because you don't think the army can defeat terminators, vanguard veterans, grey hunters, or grey knights without a tarpit? Or because you think that the fluffy role of celestians is to tarpit enemy units? If the former, I don't think we can know that until we know more about points costs and unit options. If the latter, on what basis do you contend that the elite of an Order Militant is to tarpit enemy units (for that matter, what about "tarpit" seems fluff-appropriate for sisters of battle at all)?

EDIT: For that matter, I'd argue that a codex has a fluff problem any time you can say of the elite of that army, "They are not there to win." The elite of the sisters of battle should not be able to defeat the elite of a space marine chapter on a woman-for-man basis, but I think there's a serious problem if you can look at the entire unit and say, "Well, their role in the army is not to f*ck people up."

EDIT 2: I don't think any SoB unit should out-assault terminators, vanguard veterans, grey knights, or grey hunters, at least not consistently. Sisters of battle don't have anything like the dedicated CQB specialists that space marines do, not even seraphim or celestians. But if the codex's answer to dedicated CQB specialists is "well, tarpit them and then shoot them down next turn" I think the codex is misreading the lore of the Orders Militant. Tarpitting as a tactic is not one I can see battle sisters condoning. Mowing down a terminator squad with melta guns, yes. Throwing a unit of sisters at a terminator squad to whittle it down at the expense of every one of those sisters' lives, yes. Throwing a unit of sisters at a terminator squad to do essentially nothing except slow them down, no. I think that's the wrong attitude for this army to take, and if that is the attitude you think they took in 3rd edition, I'd identify that as a problem with the 3rd edition codex.

[Melissia]

[snip]

Hm. That math doesn't add up....

[Nabterayl]

Hm. That math doesn't add up....

In the sense that I'm off by a few tenths or in the sense that you have alternative math to present that refutes the general point that new celestians, with or without faith powers, are better at assault than old celestians even with the old faith powers?

[wallweasels]

That is certainly their current function. However, I contend that their current function is at odds with their fluff. Fluff-wise (I contend), sisters celestian have always been the storm troopers of the Orders Militant (that is, [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shock_troops]storm troopers[/url], not [url=http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Storm_Trooper]storm troopers[/url], who are not actually storm troopers at all in the classical sense). Insofar as they are becoming more of a storm trooper unit and less of a tarpit unit, I contend that their role is becoming more, and not less, fluffy.

Storm Troopers have evolved into more of a shock trooper role...but Celestians are literally just veterans. They are bodyguards to the leaders, generally act better than the rest of the army, and in some cases go on veteran specific missions. But during a crusade its all guns blazing like everyone else. It is Dominions that have always been more the shock troop, and especially more so with the scout rules (even now says so in their fluffy-text before the rules). Regardless celestians are our "long beards". Simple as that. They are trained in all forms because celestian untis are formed literally from every type of sister.

Assuming a 4+, yes indeed. But new celestians without faith in an assault will now perform comparably to or better than old celestians with faith, unless you are trying to tarpit an enemy with a large number of power weapon attacks (against which, I would contend, the fluff-appropriate result is for the sisters to lose anyway). And at least in some circumstances, new celestians who expend one renewable faith point outperform old celestians who expend three non-renewable faith points. Is it the same as the old unit? No. Is it what I want celestians to be? Not quite. But is it improvement? I'd say yes.

Its an improvement that was not really required. We didn't need to punch marines with celestians mostly since celestians just were not worth the cost. We wanted veteran sisters...yet all we got was non-scoring units that performed functionally like battle sisters but at +2 points each. I saw more air time of celestians during 4th edtion where they could score and take objectives. So far better at combat, but that is not what people used them for. Although that is what they were kind of implied to be decent at combat or should be...they just were...well Andy Hoare likes to write more fluff than good rules.

Why do you want that? Because you don't think the army can defeat terminators, vanguard veterans, grey hunters, or grey knights without a tarpit? Or because you think that the fluffy role of celestians is to tarpit enemy units? If the former, I don't think we can know that until we know more about points costs and unit options. If the latter, on what basis do you contend that the elite of an Order Militant is to tarpit enemy units (for that matter, what about "tarpit" seems fluff-appropriate for sisters of battle at all)?

Tarpits help for sure and it is a good way to make more tactical play on the table for both sides. Before that could be done with any squad, regardless of what type, that was capable of getting off faith. Because don't think of it in fluff terms as "their job" to be tarpit...but more that they are risking their lifes and being saved by the faith alone from death because they are trying to save their fellow sisters. I honestly cannot think ANYTHING more backed by fluff than sisters fanatical devotion to risk their lives to save someone else, especially members of the Ecclesiarchy that are important. Sister convents have held off forces long enough to let people and relics be evacuated. That is literally an ENTIRE ARMY tarpitting the enemy to save someone else.

any[/i] time you can say of the elite of that army, "They are not there to win." The elite of the sisters of battle should not be able to defeat the elite of a space marine chapter on a woman-for-man basis, but I think there's a serious problem if you can look at the entire unit and say, "Well, their role in the army is not to f*ck people up."

Kind of just see above on this one. However really? In the fluff they wouldn't jut 1-1 toe beat out a veteran space marine...yet there will be significantly larger amounts of Celestians than veteran marines which means they could then be on an even level purely that there is a 2-1 or 3-1 ratio Table Top doesn't have to be hard core to the fluff in balancing while it should give a feel or imply the fluff. Regardless...some decent points and if celestians are buffed thats great...but like many things in this book they made some decent changes but at the cost of msasively changing EVERYTHING else.

[wallweasels]

Hm. That math doesn't add up....

I am somewhat agreeing:

On charge celestians with 9 sisters /w nothing and 1 superior with PW+pistol do:
Divine Guidance on charge: 3.556 dead
Hand of the Emperor on charge: 4.444
Hand of the Emperor + Divine Guidance: 5.778
Of course both consider that the marines did 0 damage before the celestians could strike....but PW + 1 attack marines kill 2 celestians...who change the results of the second to: 3.852 and 4.889 respectively.

New Celestians:
On charge without faith: 2.167
With +1 Str: 3.25
but in this case BOTH can't strike first so they lose 2 models as well: which drops it down to 1.833 and 2.75 respectively...which are way worse. Now this is largely dependent on what wargear they can take. Its entirely possible that they could take special combat weapons as upgrades or blah blah. But yeah...your numbers are off. I am to lazy to do the marines and its pretty late for me x_x the lossof 3+ to hit is basically like losing a point of strength. 4+ to hit and 4+ to are exactly statistically equal to 3+ and 5+. New celestian gain a favor by having another attack but ultimately lose our because "rending" DG is decently powerful when spammed with attacks and hand of the emperor makes it a 3+/3+ to hit/wound...which vastly improved the power sword.

edit: I also had a big post that was repsone to one of your posts Nebterayl but I guess itw as so long it needed moderator approval or something? So if it pops up after this then forgive my double post x_x

[Nabterayl]

I am somewhat agreeing:

On charge celestians with 9 sisters /w nothing and 1 superior with PW+pistol do:
Divine Guidance on charge: 3.556 dead
Hand of the Emperor on charge: 4.444
Hand of the Emperor + Divine Guidance: 5.778
Of course both consider that the marines did 0 damage before the celestians could strike....but PW + 1 attack marines kill 2 celestians...who change the results of the second to: 3.852 and 4.889 respectively.

Ah, I see what I did. I did indeed fail to take into account Holy Hatred. Fair enough. So our best kill numbers are old celestians 3.85 kills with 1 faith point and 4.89 kills with 2 faith points, versus new celestians at 4.13 or 4.11 kills with 1 faith point (math below).

I'll concede that isn't as good as I had thought.

Nine sisters celestians with boltguns and bolt pistols, a celestian superior with bolt pistol and power weapon, and no faith.

The celestians get 10 bolt pistol shots (no faith) prior to assault. Of those 10, 20/3 will hit, and of those 20/3, 20/6 will wound. The marines will fail a total of 20/18 saves, for approximately 1.11 dead marines.

Tactical marines strike first at I4. We are now down to 7 8/9 tactical marines, who will get 71/9 attacks. Of those 70/9, 70/18 will hit, 140/36 will wound, and the sisters will fail a total of 140/108 saves, for approximately 1.30 dead sisters celestian.

We are now down to 7 8/27 sisters celestian. At 3 attacks each, they will receive a total of 575/27 attacks. Of these, 575/54 will hit, and at S3 (no faith) 575/162 will wound, meaning the marines fail a total of 575/486 saves and lose approximately 1.18 marines. The celestian superior receives 5 attacks, of which 5/2 will hit and 5/6 will wound, with no applicable saves, for an additional approximately 0.83 dead marines.

We now have a total of approximately 1.11 marine casualties from bolt pistols, 1.18 marines from sisters celestian, and 0.83 marines from the celestian superior, for a total of approximately 3.12 dead marines.

Now give the new celestians S4 via faith.

As previously demonstrated, the celestians' bolt pistols will kill a total of 10/9 marines.

As previously demonstrated, the tactical marines will kill a total of 35/27 celestians, leaving us with a total of 7 8/27 sisters celestian plus the celestian superior.

The sisters celestian still get 575/27 attacks, and 575/54 hits. At S4 (from faith) they receive 575/108 wounds, for a total of 575/324 failed saves, or approximately 1.77 dead marines. The celestian superior still gets 5 attacks, of which 5/2 hit, but now 5/4 wound, with no applicable saves, for an additional 1.25 dead marines.

We now have a total of approximately 1.11 marine casualties from bolt pistols, 1.77 marines from sisters celestian, and 1.25 marines from the celestian superior, for a total of approximately 4.13 dead marines.

Now take away S4 and give the [command squad] celestians Relentless. Unlike my last post I'll assume the command squad does not have a sister hospitaller.

10 celestians receive 19 bolt shots (I'll assume the celestian superior cannot have a boltgun, bolt pistol, and power weapon). Of those 19 shots, 38/3 hit. Of those 38/3 hits, 38/6 will wound, and the marines will fail a total of 38/18 saves, for approximately 2.11 dead marines. We are now down to approximately 6.89 tactical marines plus the sergeant.

6 8/9 tactical marines will strike first, at I4. They receive 62/9 attacks, of which 62/18 will hit and 124/36 will wound. The celestians will fail a total of 124/108 saves, for approximately 1.15 dead celestians.

The remaining 7 4/27 sisters celestian, at 3 attacks each, will receive a total of 571/27 attacks. Of these, 571/54 will hit, and at S3 only 571/162 will wound. The marines will fail 571/486 saves, for approximately 1.17 dead marines. The celestian superior, as previously demonstrated at 5 S3 attacks, will kill 5/6 or approximately 0.83 marines.

We now have a total of approximately 2.11 marine casualties from bolt weapons, 1.17 marine casualties from sisters celestian, and 0.83 marines from the celestian superior, for a total of approximately 4.11 dead marines.

[Calypso2ts]

You are missing my point, which is that Celestians being more killy than they were is not a useful upgrade that in any way increases their utility to a SoB player. It is like making Grots more killly - Yes they might kill 1 more MEQ, but at the end of the day they are not there to assault. How about I give Khorne Berserkers BS 6? Also irrelevant because that is not their job.

Right now Celestians are there to ride in an Immolator and carry two Meltas. Their Faith lets them absorb the charge and stick for a turn.

What is the job of the new Celestians? Their Faith power (Relentless, MTC), grenades and 2 base attacks makes them SEEM like it should be assault. Base I3, S3 no power weapons no CCW (I did not see one on the leaked page, maybe I am wrong) suggests they are not assaulters. They cannot beat basic troops even though they are 'elite' in assault, so what are they?

Maybe I need to see the whole picture to understand, but in terms of what they used to do well it appears to me that they do it worse and the things they never did well they do marginally better.

Also, I would rather not have grenades on all my SoB standard - who is actually assaulting with SoB and in the past I would rather go with two S5 hits on rear armor from HotW than a single S6 grenade.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

[DrLove42]

That Bolter sure looks a lot like a flamer to me....