Balancing Grey Knights

[Demonus]

Thats just bad luck it sounds like. 45 shots and only 2 glances? LOL like I said, I fired 3 lascannons. 2 hit, 1 glanced and the other penned. rolled a 5. dead dreadnought.

dice gods were not with you.

[Nightwolf]

It sounds to me like that was just bad rolls for the most part. Plain psyrifle dreads aren't so scary if a DE player is careful about target priority. Venerable Psyrifle dreads on the other hand...

[relasine]

It's not that Psybolt Ammunition or Autocannons are under-costed, it's the combination is. If people were running Dreadnoughts with Heavy Bolters or Assault Cannons, this wouldn't be an issue. Psybolt Ammunition should be sold with qualifiers. If you have two main weapons that benefit from Psybolt Ammunition, it's 15 points, otherwise it's 5. Dreadnoughts should also get a small base point increase due to Fortitude.

I think Crowe would be fine as an IC if he made Purifiers scoring instead of a Troop choice.

I don't honestly know what to do with Psilencers.

[DrLove42]

Psilencers should break the rules a bit

If they cause wounds, the shock of being killed in silence (the guns name is a play on a silencer lets face it) causes a morale check at -3, giving more likely for a unit to run

Or they are small and compact so they can be fired AFTER running...giving the GK more fire on the move, befitting an elite army

[chicop76]

After reading the Op post I would have to say I agree and disagree on what was said.

Brotherhood Champion: I would say it's borderline broken. It's a cheap hq that have 1 wound on it for a reason. Throw him against a Nightbringer and you have a 66.66% chance of earning your points back. The model is made to take out Abbadon, Fateweaver, etc. Against guard heks useless, but against other armies it's a pain.

Brother-Captain: for 25 pts less I'm lossing Grand Strategy, and -1 bs also the psycannon is 5 pts cheaer on a captain. I would agree on why bother and just spend the 25 pts on the Grand Master.

Mordrack: Broken

Librarian: Broken on many levels. The list goes on and on with teleporting troops to objctives, flame template that pens and forces int test, regular units have 2d6 +1 against armour, etc.

Rad and Psychotroke grenades: Broken

Purifier Squad: I think they're a bit much, but I wouldn't say broken. Although 4 psycannons and cheap upgrades in an all Purifier army is very close to being broken.

Dreadknight: I use one or two and they have done very well. I only spending 160 points with a heavy incinerator and they can do a lot of damage. Going over 160 will start to nullify even taking this model. One example you can use a librian in a transport to get this guy in hell hound range turn 1. Also the model provides cover saves for the army as well. The +5 invulnerable works well for me. Although I roll lots of 5s for some reason. Anyway compared to any other Monsterous Creature it's cheap and much better then the others. The teeporter is very costly, playing Daemons it's like a prince paying for wings so I'll doubt they would drop that and the sword for 25pts I can't really justify.

Dreadnought: The only decent costing long range the army has. It's good, but not broken. Broken would be a Furioso with Venerable, Fortitude, and +2d6 for armour pen.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

I think a solution to much of the Psybolt ammo/Psyflame ammo could be solved by just adding a few new weapon options, considering that a Heavy Flamer with Psyflame is identical to an Incinerator, and an Assault Cannon with Psybolt is identical to a Psycannon

How about this:

---

Psybolt ammo only affects Storm Bolters and Hurricane Bolters.

Psyflame ammo is no longer an option in any unit entry.

Land Raiders and Storm Ravens can upgrade a Twin-Linked Assault Cannon to a Twin-linked Psycannon for +5 points.

Land Raiders and Storm Ravens can upgrade a Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter to a Twin-linked Psycannon for +40 points.

Land Raider Redeemers can replace their Flamestorm Cannons with a pair of Incinerator Infernos +5 points.

Razorbacks may upgrade a Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter to a Twin-Linked Incinerator for +30 points or a Twin-Linked Psycannon for +40 points.

Dreadnoughts and Venerable Dreadnoughts may upgrade a Multimelta to a Twin-Linked Incinerator for +5 points, a Psycannon for +15 points or a Twin-linked Psy-Boltcannon for +20 points.

Dreadnoughts and Venerable Dreadnoughts may upgrade a Doomfist to a Twin-linked Psy-Boltcannon for +20 points

Dreadnoughts and Venerable Dreadnoughts may upgrade one Stormbolter to an Incinerator for +15 points.

---

Psy-Boltcannons are equivalent to an autocannon with Psybolt, Incinerator Infernos are equivalent to Flamestorm cannon with Psyflame.

[DarkLink]

My usual opponent has had good results out of dreadknights and heavy psilencers (weight of fire).

Affirm on the Captain, Negative on the Dreadkinghts.

Y'know, for the same cost he could take a small Strike Squad, get the same number of str4 shots and a psycannon to boot, plus they can score by default.

Anyways, I'm not saying the Dreadknight is totally useless. I'm saying it isn't a very competitive choice. There is little reason to take it over other, better options.

Thats just bad luck it sounds like. 45 shots and only 2 glances? LOL like I said, I fired 3 lascannons. 2 hit, 1 glanced and the other penned. rolled a 5. dead dreadnought.

And that sounds like pretty good luck. So let's do some math. I don't feel like showing my work, though. It takes, on average, 13.5 Dark Lances to kill a Dreadnought with no cover saves (27 with cover, and 40.5 if there's shrouding). It takes 12 Guard Lascannons with no cover, or 9 SM lascannons.

On the other hand, one psyrifle dread will kill one DE Raider per turn on average. When it takes the whole enemy army to kill one GK model, and each GK unit is killing one DE unit in return, it's pretty obvious who's going to win the shootout.

Brotherhood Champion: I would say it's borderline broken. It's a cheap hq that have 1 wound on it for a reason. Throw him against a Nightbringer and you have a 66.66% chance of earning your points back. The model is made to take out Abbadon, Fateweaver, etc. Against guard heks useless, but against other armies it's a pain.

Against a handful of other armies. Nightbringer falls to psyrifle Dreads long before you'll reach combat anyways. Same thing with Fateweaver, especially since you have to fight through the Demon army first to get to him. While useful, and potentially frustrating for the opponent, it is far from broken in the vast majority of cases.

And it's not a 2/3 chance of killing. For one thing, a lot of those nasty units have a WS just as high as the Champion, so it's only a 50% chance of hitting. Plus, you have to pass a psychic test to do it, bringing down the odds. And if they have any psychic defenses, it becomes an even longer shot.

So, in an extremely limited set of circumstances the Champion can be arguably broken, maybe. That does not make him a good unit.

Brother-Captain: for 25 pts less I'm lossing Grand Strategy, and -1 bs also the psycannon is 5 pts cheaer on a captain. I would agree on why bother and just spend the 25 pts on the Grand Master.

The question is, what to give the Brother Captain to make him worth it.

Mordrack: Broken

How so? The only thing that could have arguably made Mordrack broken was the shuntpunt thing, and that's illegal now. And even that was a one trick pony.

Librarian: Broken on many levels. The list goes on and on with teleporting troops to objctives, flame template that pens and forces int test, regular units have 2d6 +1 against armour, etc.

Well, you can't send troops to objective, only call them back to one you already control. But 90% of the reason to take a Librarian is for the Shrouding and the Psychic hood. The other powers tend to be somewhat situational. The Librarian is a very good unit, but not broken.

Dreadnought: The only decent costing long range the army has. It's good, but not broken. Broken would be a Furioso with Venerable, Fortitude, and +2d6 for armour pen.

No, it's crazy good. Absurdly good for its points. Broken is just a word that gets tossed around, but you cannot argue that a psyrifle dread should cost what it does, even taking the army's weakness into account.

No unit should be so good that it is an auto-include, and a psyrifle dread is the most obvious unit in the entire book.

[Kawauso]

No, it's crazy good. Absurdly good for its points. Broken is just a word that gets tossed around, but you cannot argue that a psyrifle dread should cost what it does, even taking the army's weakness into account.

No unit should be so good that it is an auto-include, and a psyrifle dread is the most obvious unit in the entire book.

Agreed.
Fortitude is worth a lot more than 5 points on a dedicated gun platform. It's really, really irritating.

And the S8 pushes things over the top. Psybolt ammo isn't so bad on the other options. But 4 TL S8 shots means it chews through any T4 multi-wound unit (nids) with the greatest of ease, or it can handily swat almost any light-medium-armoured vehicle into oblivion each turn.

I don't like complaining about units in new codices, and I certainly don't think the sky is falling, but I think psyfleman dreads are more woefully undercosted than Vendettas, and that says something. At least you can stop a Vendetta from moving or shooting for a turn. And it has less shots. At a lower BS.

Reinforced Aegis isn't that bad. Sure, it's annoying for units like Zoanthropes, but it's a somewhat niche upgrade, so that one I would say is worth about 5 pts. on a dread. Which essentially makes Fortitude free, as things are now, doesn't it? (I don't have the codex with me)

[chicop76]

Agreed.
Fortitude is worth a lot more than 5 points on a dedicated gun platform. It's really, really irritating.

And the S8 pushes things over the top. Psybolt ammo isn't so bad on the other options. But 4 TL S8 shots means it chews through any T4 multi-wound unit (nids) with the greatest of ease, or it can handily swat almost any light-medium-armoured vehicle into oblivion each turn.

I don't like complaining about units in new codices, and I certainly don't think the sky is falling, but I think psyfleman dreads are more woefully undercosted than Vendettas, and that says something. At least you can stop a Vendetta from moving or shooting for a turn. And it has less shots. At a lower BS.

Reinforced Aegis isn't that bad. Sure, it's annoying for units like Zoanthropes, but it's a somewhat niche upgrade, so that one I would say is worth about 5 pts. on a dread. Which essentially makes Fortitude free, as things are now, doesn't it? (I don't have the codex with me)

It's almost an auto win for knights against nids. It's almost like the army is more anti nid then anti daemon. The nid player would have a better chance with the old codex against the knights. Atleast Orcs can put on a good show.

Reinforced Ageis is super good. It makes anything with aegis 12" away -4 on psychic attacks. At best you will need a 6 with psyker battle squads needing to get under a 4. Even with eldar discarding the highest die it's hard to get 6 and under. You will have a better chance getting leadership 9 powers off if you have to roll 3 dice to do so.

Mordrack is broken for these reasons.
1. He can do an accurate 1st turn deepstrike with x number ICS attached. So 6 terms, 1 libby, 3 tech marines can be in your face with heavy shooting and assault next turn with all of them having a +2 save.
2. For 25pts more then a Grandmaster you get
A. +1 wound, and attack
B. Master-crafted weapon
C. Upgrade Character in a retinue
D. Turn 1 accurate deep strike option with no scatter
E. The ability to spawn 40 pt terminators for losing 1 wound. So if you wound him 3 times it's possible to add 120pts more models on the table making Mordrack really worth 80 pts. I would dare say it's not hare to get two extra terms out there so he would really hit around for 120pts, much less then a regular grandmaster and even if you spawn only one that's still 160 pts, so 15 pts cheaper then a grandmaster, and with the ability for the defender to allocate wounds to him. He can't be singled out makes this guy worst then Ajax from the spacewolves, atleast I don't have to worry about newly spawning models to try to kill Ajax

Librarian is cheesy for these reasons:
1. In combat it can have a +2 invulnerable save
2. Dark Ex really hurts daemons like negating power weapons, hit and run, rending, etc. Although limited to Daemons it's still very powerful and only a 5pt what if.
3. Might of titan; the +1 strength is not what makes it bad. It's the +d6 is what make it bad. So a dreadknight with a sword against armour can be strength 8+3d6 and re roll armour pens and hits, Heck just a normal str 4 would do strengh 6-17 against amour.
A. If I used might of titan on like say a 10 man warrior squad that cost 40pts and charged them against a landraider, so that's 30 attacks that bumb from strength 3 to strength 4. At strength 4 they can pen armour between 6-16, so realistically a 40 point squad although not very likely can destroy a landraider. A str 3 model really shouldn't be able to take out 14 armour with just a 5 pt upgrade.
4.Quicksilver int 10 frag grenade force weapons, and should I say more.
5. Sanctuary: not too over the top, but again it hurts some armies more then others
6. The shrouding can be very cheezy. Can you say +3 cover saves for everyone in a 6" bubble. Through in a techmarine or 2 then you have +2 cover saves for your units in cover. So thay squad of strike marines on the objective have a +2 cover save. No it's not cheezy. Turn 1 move rhinos up and pop +3 cover save smoke with everything else behind them getting a 3+. I could go on, but I would dare say big block of cheese here.
7. Smite: do you really need it anyway with all the other powers you'll probably be actively using
8. Summoning: this gives you options.
A. If you deep strike mishap and your opponet place you, so guess what you can teleport that unit to be somewhere useful next turn.
B. No scoring units around to take an objective, no problem just teleport them to your libby
C. Need more firing support or a unit is too far back, bam teleport to a useful spot
D. Need like 11" more in turn one with a landraider. Move 12" in your rhino and teleport the land raider 6" away giving the raider almost 24" movement. Just for giggles you can have plasma gunners disembark from another rhino to rapid fire some terminators turn 1.
E. Need some incinerating love, so teleport some incinerators by a target.
The possibilites is just endless and throw in garbage like poping smoke and shrouding providing a 3+ cover save is just crazy. So just think about a landraider that's like 1" from your deployment zone with a 3+ cover save and close combat attacks needing 6s to hi because it deepstriked in.
F. Vortex of Doom: not really bad until someone attach the libby with mordrack and throw the pie plate on a tank, well blast.
G. Warp Rift: destroys initiative 2 and 3 armies and can auto pen

So is the Librarian cheezy, no. Is it cheezy if you use it's powers, yes.

[DarkLink]

Right, the combination of Reinforced Aegis and Fortitude is certainly justification for a bit more expensive Dreads. Combined with more expensive Psybolt ammo, and Psyrifle Dreads would be more appropriately priced. There would be a reason to take other weapon loadouts, or even other units in general.




I can't say that Mordrack is broken, because dropping in your opponent's face turn 1 means you have no support. If your opponent can't kill a squad of Terminators and a handful of characters with their entire army, then they probably don't have a very good list.

Yes, there are a handful of armies that are probably pretty screwed over by Mordrack, but being overpowered in a small number of isolated cases is very different from being overpowered in general.

Librarian is cheesy for these reasons:

I think you're mistaking "cheesy" and "broken" for very good. The Librarian has lots of useful powers. He is a good unit. But he is not broken.

You can say something like Psyrifle Dreads are broken, because they win in a firefight against almost anything else you would reasonably compare them to, are basically auto-include in every single Grey Knight list, and are super cheap on top of it.

The combination of all the grenades are broken, because simply taking them can make it virtually impossible for the Grey Knights to ever lose combat. Your opponent's only hope is that they manage to get enough attacks through to do some damage before you kill their entire unit.


But a Librarian? He's very good, yes. He isn't broken, though. He's not an auto-include. Enemy psychic defenses cut his usefulness down significantly, and most of his powers have drawbacks. Might of Titan and the Quickening do you no good if your opponent assaults you, and since you're stuck in Terminator armor you need a Land Raider or Storm Raven to reasonably guarantee the charge. And since GKs already have high strength and high initiative, those powers are only useful on occasion. And ultimately, the Librarian is still just a 2 wound model. And a very expensive one at that, after you buy powers and especially if you buy a Warding Stave.

Not to say that the Librarian couldn't be toned down a touch, but I frankly don't think he needs it. The Grey Knight codex is based around manipulating the force that you can bring to the fight at any given point, and the Librarian is just another multiplier to allow you to do that.