'ard boyz foot Grey Knights

[plawolf]

Strike squad without transport in that list = bad idea. I am also not sold on the Interceptors.

One of the biggest strengths of the original list is how it sticks a giant middle finger to most of the anti-power armor weapons you can expect pretty much all other lists to be packing.

By taking 3+ save guys, all those guns now suddenly have the kind of things they were taken primarily to kill.

With the strike squad hoofing it, I am not expecting them to last long enough to have much impact on the game, and would not be drawing enough effective firepower away from your termies to make much of a difference.

Any AP1, AP2 guns will still shoot your termies or dreads as before, but only now any AP3 weapons will suddenly be worth the price your opponents paid for them instead of being wasted against termie armor.

With that in mind, you will need to be hiding your Interceptors most of the game or risk having them blown away pretty quickly if you want to pull the last turn shunt and grab objective trick.

If you really want the interceptors, fine, but take a 5 man termie squad with a psycannon instead of the strike squad or find the extra points to make that strike squad into a purifier squad.

The loss of 5 termies might be worth the extra mobility of interceptors, but loosing another 5 for an extra 10 men GKSS is a bad trade in my view.

With purifiers, at least you would have a unit worth the effort of screening with your termies and shrouded Libby, and more importantly, it is scary enough in CC that many opponents would actually bother to try and target them if you screened them to take some of the pressure off the termie armor.

The 'upgrade' to grand master also seems like a bit of a compromise, mainly taken to make the Interceptors scoring.

With 'nades your termies should do just fine against most opponents. Anything that will give your termies trouble is unlikely to be all that scared of a GM anyways, so it seems you are not getting all that much more bang for your buck considering how much more you are paying for the GM, and especially with the opportunity cost of the ven psyrifle.

If you are going to just take the Interceptors, I would advise against the GM. Just grab objectives with your termies and use the interceptors shunt move to contest enemy held ones at the end.

If you are taking Interceptors and purifiers, the GM might be worth it as 20 scoring troops is dangerously few even if they are in termie armor, but you still might be able to get away without needing the grand strategy and may really appreciate the extra psyrifle.

[DarkLink]

Oh, man, I didn't realize 'ard boyz was this weekend. I guess that limits what units I can take a little, since I don't have the time to go out and buy and paint some new stuff. I'm probably going to have to go with the 20 Terminator, 20 GKSS and 10 Interceptor list just because of that. I don't have the time for the extra psyrifle dreads and the extra 10 Terminators.

I only have 3 psyrifle Dreads, so I'm going to have to find something to do with the 195pts from the Venerable one.

Strike squad without transport in that list = bad idea. I am also not sold on the Interceptors.

I might agree, except that I find that my GKSS are never actually in their Rhino. I occasionally deploy in it turn 1 for the extra 6" move, but I can't recall the last time I actually bothered to re-embark.

Rhinos do a couple things for you. 1) mobile cover, 2) protect from shooting and assaults and 3) extra movement. Sacrificing the mobile cover is a bit of a gamble, but there are also killpoint/victory point missions so easy units to kill (like Rhinos) can be a disadvantage as well. As for 2, as I mentioned I normally stay outside my transports anyways so I'm pretty comfortable with the idea of being exposed to shooting, and I'm confident that against most armies I can weather enemy fire reasonably well.

3 is a calculated sacrifice. It's a tradeoff between the extra firepower and close combat punch of 10 GKSS. On one hand, I get a bunch more storm bolters, psycannons and power weapons, but on the other I'm a little bit slower. That's where the Interceptors come in. GKs can footslog whereever they need to, but the Interceptors allow me to move more quickly if need be, since just walking can take a few extra turns.


And, of course, this is a bit of experimentation. I've had the idea of dropping all my transports in order to squeeze in another unit of GKs, so now I'm going to try it out to see if my theory works.

One of the biggest strengths of the original list is how it sticks a giant middle finger to most of the anti-power armor weapons you can expect pretty much all other lists to be packing.

By taking 3+ save guys, all those guns now suddenly have the kind of things they were taken primarily to kill.

With the strike squad hoofing it, I am not expecting them to last long enough to have much impact on the game, and would not be drawing enough effective firepower away from your termies to make much of a difference.

Any AP1, AP2 guns will still shoot your termies or dreads as before, but only now any AP3 weapons will suddenly be worth the price your opponents paid for them instead of being wasted against termie armor.

Again, this is a bit of experimentation. Aside from Leman Russes, I can't think of too many units in the game that really, really scare me due to AP 3, and I can still screen with the Terminators whilst taking advantage of the Shrouding. The Terminators are still in the same boat as before, but the GKSS get 3+ cover instead of 3+ armor. That also lets me hide my Librarian behind enemy lines so that I can keep him better protected and counter assault with Might of Titan and the Quickening more easily.

And keep in mind that 2 GKSS are roughly equivalent to 1 Terminator in most ways. Statistically they are equivalent against anything they get armor saves against, and while there are some AP3 guns out there GKSS are actually more resilient vs AP1/2 since you get twice as many wounds as you otherwise would.

The other swinging point is that you get more guns. The more psycannons you have, the less incoming fire you take, so I'm banking on my extra suppressing fire ensuring a bit of extra toughness.

With that in mind, you will need to be hiding your Interceptors most of the game or risk having them blown away pretty quickly if you want to pull the last turn shunt and grab objective trick.

I'm not too worried about last turn shunting, though that is a useful ability if I get the chance. Again, this is a bit of experimentation, since I haven't played Interceptors much, and I feel they fit into this list as this list needs a few faster units.

Plus, I can always outflank them to keep them alive a bit longer. That'll keep my opponent looking over their shoulder a little bit longer.

If you really want the interceptors, fine, but take a 5 man termie squad with a psycannon instead of the strike squad or find the extra points to make that strike squad into a purifier squad.

The loss of 5 termies might be worth the extra mobility of interceptors, but loosing another 5 for an extra 10 men GKSS is a bad trade in my view.

As I mentioned, GKSS aren't a bad tradeoff for Terminators so long as you have adequate CC ability. 20 GKT plus a Grand Master and Librarian gives me all the CC punch I should need, so I'm relying on the GKSS's cheap guns to make up the difference.

Plus I didn't realize 'ard boyz was this weekend, so I don't have time to buy and paint the extra Terminators I'd need.

With purifiers, at least you would have a unit worth the effort of screening with your termies and shrouded Libby, and more importantly, it is scary enough in CC that many opponents would actually bother to try and target them if you screened them to take some of the pressure off the termie armor.

I'm taking the GKSS for the guns and the free scoring. I'm counting on them to shoot stuff and hold my half of the table while the Terminators march into my opponent's deployment zone. GKSS do that for cheaper than Purifiers. Not that purifiers don't have their (significant) advantages in some areas, but I'm not sure how I'd fit in the points to upgrade them, and as you mention below only 20 scoring dudes is a bit of a risk in the second mission. I'd like to have as many scoring bodies as possible, and with the GKSS combat squadding, plus the GM making Interceptors and possibly some Dreadnoughts scoring, I'll have plenty of units to claim objectives.

The 'upgrade' to grand master also seems like a bit of a compromise, mainly taken to make the Interceptors scoring.

With 'nades your termies should do just fine against most opponents. Anything that will give your termies trouble is unlikely to be all that scared of a GM anyways, so it seems you are not getting all that much more bang for your buck considering how much more you are paying for the GM, and especially with the opportunity cost of the ven psyrifle.

The Grand Master is awesome, and the extra points over the Inquisitor are well worth it. Grenades are half the reason to take him, but he's also awesome in CC, gets the Grand Strategy which is immensely useful for a lot more than just scoring, and has some other useful abilities like both Hammerhand and Psychic Communion. Making the Interceptors scoring is just one of many, many useful things he can do.

In lower point games, I'm still debating whether or not I prefer a GM or Librarian, but here at 'ard boyz there are plenty of points to take both.

If you are going to just take the Interceptors, I would advise against the GM. Just grab objectives with your termies and use the interceptors shunt move to contest enemy held ones at the end.

Even if I decide not to make stuff scoring, there are other useful things to do with the GM. In fact, I only rarely use the scoring ability. I normally use the reroll 1's to wound, or occasionally outflank.

[DarkLink]

Anyways, since I'm lacking a few models I would need, here's a list that I can field right now that I like. It also happens to have the tools to do well in all the 'ard boyz scenarios (in mission 1, I can hide my traitor in a nasty uber-terminator unit, good luck shooting it to death and I dare you to assault me. Mission 2, I can generate a ton of scoring units, then just march the Terminators into my opponent's deployment to mess with him, and use the Interceptors to contest last turn if need be. Mission 3, again you can try and kill my HQ if you dare try and assault me. Good luck with that). I also happen to be pretty well optimized for the battle points, since I have a pretty aggressive army and don't concede anything easily.


HQ (395)
Grand Master (210)
Rad/Blind/Psykotroke Grenades

Librarian (185)
Sanctuary, Shrouding, Might of Titan, Quickening, Summoning, 2 Skulls

Troops (1410)
10 Terminators (475)
2 Psycannons, Brotherhood Banner, 2 Hammers, 7 Halberds

10 Terminators (475)
2 Psycannons, Brotherhood Banner, 2 Hammers, 7 Halberds


10 GK Strike Squad (230)
Hammer, 2 Psycannons

10 GK Strike Squad (230)
Hammer, 2 Psycannons

Fast Attack (290)
10 Interceptors (290)
Hammer, 2 Psycannons

Heavy Support (405)
Dreadnought (135)
2 TL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo

Dreadnought (135)
2 TL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo

Dreadnought (135)
2 TL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo

Total: 2500

[plawolf]

Have you considered dropping one of the 10 men strike squads?

With that 230pts, you could make one of the psyrifles venerable for 60pts. I would be tempted to give him the autocannon + assault cannon combo and have him march up the board with your main force.

He can provide mobile cover and reinforced Aegis for your main force while benefiting from the Librarian's shrouding. Add in his venerable rule and he would be one touch model to take down. With psybolts, the assault cannon is a psycannon in all but name, so if you get him within range, he has a better chance to take out armor your psyrifles would normally not be able to touch.

I would also suggest you take 60pts and make the strike squad into purifiers with 4 psycannons.

That leaves you 110pts.

You can give every squad psybolt ammo, which will set you back 80pts.

With the last 30pts, you can give all your remaining purifiers halberts (10pts), and buy 4 halberts for your interceptors.

I think that would greatly boost the combat potential of all your units as they were a little bare bones before, and you still have a decent body counter for a GK army.

You have the option of using grand strategy to make at least one more squad scoring if needed, so should do fine on objective games.

The damage output potential for your squads are all boosted in shooting and CC, you have just as many psycannons as before, and I think the army-wide S5 stormbolters more than make up for the lost 8 stormbolters.

In CC, your single purifier squad has just as many attacks base as the two GKSS squads, but with halberts, they should go first, which would help with their survivability as there will be fewer enemies left to swing back, and that's before we consider cleansing flame.

It's a similar case with the interceptors. Incidently, have you considered going with a single psycannon and single incinerator with the interceptors? You need to find 10 pts from somewhere to do that, but having an incinerator would be a big boost against dug in infantry (which is going to be the main target these guys will be going for, no matter if you are trying to take out devastators or clear objectives).

Combat squad the interceptors, with the pscyannon and hammer going into a tank hunting squad that will shunt to get rear armor shots with the psycannon and S5 storm bolters, and finally follow up with the hammer if needed.

The halberts and incinerator can go into an anti-infantry squad. These guys can operate independent of the other half, or tag team a transport with the first squad cracking open the tin can and the second squad roasting what falls out. Then everyone charges in to finish the job.

Loosing 10 bodies will make it harder for you to soak up casualties and remain combat effective, but the venerable dread up front providing mobile cover should help to alleviate that somewhat.

But ultimately it is down to your personal preference - do you want more bare bones bodies, or to make guys you do take more effective? Since you are a GK player, I have a feeling your more already pre-disposed to be leaning towards the latter. The risk with GK lists is always that the balance would go too far into upgrades and overall efficiency suffers as unit costs inflate. But I don't think any of the suggestions above are too extravagant.

[DarkLink]

That's pretty much the options I was considering. I could either squeeze in another unit in place of the Dread, or buy some upgrades. I actually tend to be on the 'more bodies' side of things, since just plain GKs come with pretty frikin' good wargear as it is. Usually wargear is just Brotherhood Banners, Psycannons, minimal NFW upgrades and possibly psybolts.

Either way, it's something to think about. I should have the bodies I need to do both lists, since as an old GK player I have plenty of Halberd models.

[DarkLink]

So I ended up taking the 'more bodies' option, and it worked pretty well. There's still some things that can be improved and that I learned, though. I also happened to pick up a few more models with my winnings, so that helps too.




First off, I'm picking bodies over durability. For the most part, I wasn't lacking in toughness but in firepower instead. I'll plan on dropping one Terminator squad and getting more bodies.

Second, Interceptors are awesome. They are fantastic for doing what your opponent doesn't want you to do. I never used them to contest an objective, but I did fly them around and do annoying stuff like block units from moving, or getting the charge off from far away. In a mech list they're probably overpriced, but they cover the weaknesses of a foot-heavy list so well that they shine, even if they die a lot. I'm planning on taking a second squad of these guys.

Thirdly, I want a unit of Purifiers, for the psycannons and to keep a bit more staying power in CC.

Fourth, I found the Librarian to be not that useful. Don't get me wrong, Shrouding and Sanctuary and the Hood and stuff are all useful, but I never found them to be quite worth the near 200pts compared to what I could get otherwise. I'd rather take another squad of guys instead. Now, the Grand Master on the other hand, is amazing. I found his array of useful abilities much more, well, useful than the Librarians. Both units are great, but I feel that even at this point level there's only room for one, and it's the Grand Master.

Dropping the Librarian and making the other changes leaves me with this:


Grand Master, Rad/Blind/Psykotroke Grenades 2 Skulls (220)

10 Purifiers, 4 Psycannons, 5 Halberds, 1 Hammer (295)

10 Terminators, 2 Psycannons, Brotherhood Banner (475)

10 GKSS, 2 Psycannons, Hammer (230)

2x 10 Interceptors, Hammer, 2 Psycannons (580)

3x Psyrifle Dreads (405)

That's a total of 2205.





Now, I only have 2 scoring units. Grand Strategy mitigates this, but I don't ever want to be trapped into using the scoring power when I could use something more useful. I have 295pts to spend, which happens to be exactly enough for another 10 Purifiers, but they aren't scoring. If I get 10 more GKSS, though, I'll have points left over for Psybolt Ammo on stuff. The only limitation is that I don't own enough models for those last 10 GKSS, unless I want to give them a bunch of Halberds (which I don't).

I also wouldn't mind a second cheap HQ. Some of the Inquisitor options are tempting, including Coteaz (as he's pretty awesome even if you don't do henchmen spam).

So, what to do with the last 300pts?

[plawolf]

20 interceptors seem a little excessive. The massive shift towards PA also increases the risk that your army will be too similar to other PA armies, which all good competitive lists are tuned to taking down. So may suddenly find your army a lot less durable.

Have you considered dropping 5 interceptors? 15 should still give you the mobility you want, but with the 130-145pts saved, you can get a second squad of termies and not many points off from making that GKSS into purifiers.

I feel that 20 termies, 15 interceptors and 10 purifiers would give you a the best balance of numbers, mobility and firepower without changing things too much from both the army list and model selection you have, since it is well worth giving purifiers halberts, thus allowing you to use your existing models.

[DarkLink]

I think what I'm seeing is that there are two divergent ways of putting together a foot GK army. You can go either super-durable with lots of Terminators and Driagowing and stuff, or you can go with light and fast with lots of power armor and psycannons. One relies on enduring enemy firepower and then just walking through your opponent's army, the other on shooting your opponent to death before he can cause enough wounds to really hurt you.

Incidentally, while it's not strictly 'foot', mixing in a few rhinos for the mobility isn't a bad idea, but going with vehicles on everyone is with this type of list. Having a couple fast movers (Interceptors can also fill this role, though they're still exposed to enemy firepower) is very useful at projecting force as well as mobile cover and protecting weakened units and all the other uses for Rhinos. I'm also considering Coteaz and a couple henchmen squads so that I don't have to sit a 10 man GK unit on a home objective, and 6 psykers can put out a str 9 ap 1 large blast at long range. I'm going to have to look into that more, but that might come a bit later on as I experiment with some other things.

20 interceptors seem a little excessive. The massive shift towards PA also increases the risk that your army will be too similar to other PA armies, which all good competitive lists are tuned to taking down. So may suddenly find your army a lot less durable.

The difference between GKs and other SM armies, though, is that all those bodies come with lots and lots of psycannons. While it takes the same amount of firepower to kill them, with GKs you have to kill them before they kill you first. At the first round in my third game, I played another guy with about 50 power armor GKs and 10 terminators, and the only reason I pulled a draw over his superior firepower was that I was able to deploy and move better than him (and outflank), so I could focus my firepower on one or two squads at a time while staying out of 24" from half of his army. Not only did he literally have almost twice as many storm bolters and psycannons as I did, but he had psybolts on everyone as well. Had he been able to bring his superior firepower to bear more effectively, Terminator armor wouldn't have saved my guys.

I honestly don't think that only 3+ armor will be too much of a problem, because of how many psycannons come with that firepower. As long as I have the Psyrifle Dreads for the long range fire, and some Interceptors for their mobility, and a Grand Master for Scout, I should be able to project firepower wherever I need it quickly enough to suppress enemy firepower before it can cause too much damage.


And ultimately, it comes down to your opponent. 20 Terminators are better against certain armies due to their extra durability and CC punch (against 'nidz and orks they can just walk through units while shrugging off any shooting). GKSS, on the other hand, can mitigate the effects of high AP weapons better (two wounds on two models is better than one wound with a 5+ invulnerable save), and bring more guns to the fight, so against razorback spam and any vehicle based list including IG, they have an advantage.

Have you considered dropping 5 interceptors? 15 should still give you the mobility you want, but with the 130-145pts saved, you can get a second squad of termies and not many points off from making that GKSS into purifiers.

Interceptors need to be 10 man units. They're going to be in assault more often than normal GKs, and while they can be a somewhat sacrificial unit they need to be able to stand up in assault, and to be able to weather a bit of shooting on the way there. So it's either 10 or 20 Interceptors, I think.

In this case, I'm trying 20 Interceptors because I love jump infantry Grey Knights, to be honest. 10 performed very well in my last set of games, and I think 20 will provide more than adequate mobility and harrassment for my needs. 10 was a little limited, because they could only be in one place at a time, and if I wanted to shunt them out on their own then they were rather exposed. 20 means that I could either screen a much larger area and steal more charges, or drop 20 GKs somewhere threatening instantly and not have to worry as much about them getting overwhelmed.


If there's one thing I want to try here, it's this. I love Interceptors, now that I've actually played them a few times, and I feel that in general, they mesh perfectly with this type of list.The only drawback is the fact that they don't score, but I can always go back to the 20 Terminators, or figure out something.

I feel that 20 termies, 15 interceptors and 10 purifiers would give you a the best balance of numbers, mobility and firepower without changing things too much from both the army list and model selection you have, since it is well worth giving purifiers halberts, thus allowing you to use your existing models.

And if I do take purifiers, they'll have to have halberds. I have just enough swords and models for 3x10 GKSS with 2 psycannons 1 hammer and 7 swords each, then a bunch of halberds and some old modified Incinerators I can proxy as Purifier psycannons.


Anyways, fitting everything I want into the list will be the tricky part, even with all these points. I want 30+ scoring GKs not counting the Grand Master's Grand Strategy, I want 20 Interceptors, I want some beefy Terminator units, 3 psyrifle Dreads are basically auto-include*, and if I can I'd like to fit in some Purifiers.



*Incidentally, the psyrifle dreads did very well. This list really does need them, as one thing that tipped the scales against my last GK opponent was their 48" threat range, while he only had a pair of TL lascannons for long range firepower. I quickly killed them, and then the psyrifle dreads were uncontested. And in my other games, my opponent either couldn't effectively engage them or had bigger and badder targets to worry about.

[desecratedX]

Your list is strong, no doubt, but this list requires first turn in order to be 100% effective. your best bet would be to use a brother captain or grand master, put some terminators in a land raider ( flame storms are far more godly then you think they are ) and wreck face with that ( 5 terminators and a Bro kapt are legit ) then grab a interceptor squad, they literally are all purpose and serve any purpose you will need.

and believe me when i tell you, vindicare assassin's are god. grey knights are broken, straight up... but the vindicare assassin is just... ALL PURPOSE RAPE. i would run 3 in every army. thats just me.

[DarkLink]

You can only take 1 Vindicare max, and if he's not dead by the end of your opponent's first shooting phase then your opponent is probably incompetent. Or you just made a ton of 3+ cover saves. His firepower is impressive, to be sure, but when a single stray str 8 shot has pretty good odds of killing him in the first turn he's not very reliable against most good armies.


And Land Raiders are too many points not spent on bodies. GKs are not an assault army. You always maneuver around your opponent, whittle him down with shooting and then clean up in assault. Just charging straight into assault wastes a significant amount of potential that your GKs have. There aren't many weakened units in the game that can stand up to GKs after a few rounds of shooting.