Psilencers

[DarkLink]

Just thinking about Gk weapon options, and had a thought about how psilencers could have been good. As it stands, they're effectively useless, for several reasons. For one, Gks already have a ton of str 4 shooting. Secondly, it's a heavy weapon only, making it useless on power armor Gks. Lastly, it's useless against vehicles, and Gk anti-tank is almost exclusively vested in their infantry (meaning psycannons), with the exception of Dreadnoughts.

So to make the psilencer useful, you need to differentiate it from other weapons, but still let it fill a niche that Gks need. What is very rare in the codex is high ap fire. Aside from henchmen and rending psycannons, GKs have virtually no AP3, 2 or 1. Make the psilencer AP2 (and changing it from Heavy 6 to Assault 4), and you now have something that fills a useful niche within the GK codex.

Of course, this is still useless against tanks, which would mean that even after making this useful it still couldn't come close to competing with psycannons. So, let psilencers hurt vehicle. It doesn't have to be as good as psycannons (in fact, it shouldn't), but still do enough damage to matter. I'd say glancing on a 4-5 and penetrating on a 6 would be fair, after an appropriate points increase.

Fluff is easy to deal with, too. Just say that the psychic burst from the psilencer warps reality and scrambles circuitry, thus damaging vehicles and bypassing normal armor.


So with that, we're left with a weapon that brings something unique for the Gks, can hurt vehicles so it isn't automatically ignored in favor of the psycannon, and would probably be around 15pts (keeping in mind that GKs lose their force weapon and storm bolter when they upgrade).

On a side note, Psycannons should be 20pts and Incinerators 10. But whatever.

[MaltonNecromancer]

I disagree entirely. It's an anti-daemon weapon. It kills daemons. Like the Grey Knights are supposed to. Bloodthirsters fear it. So do Dark Eldar Mandrakes, Eldar Avatars, and a bunch of other stuff too.

It fills the "Anti-Daemon" niche. GK's don't need any AP 3 weapons. They have to get into assault to dish out that pain. It's clearly an army design thing - not every army needs to have every base covered. How many other armies do you know where every model gets a power weapon as standard? Daemons only (Bloodletters, yes?). So the Psilencer is designed for when a GK army can't rely on assault to chew through the enemy *quite* as reliably, because Bloodletters will ruin enough GK to actually cause problems (where other armies will have a hard time of it). That's the niche it fills.

And as for re-costing Psycannons and Incinerators, no way. I actually think the GK codex is very well costed. Yes, you can do a GK infantry spam list, but you won't get any of the shiny guns, because GK's aren't a horde army. You want the shiny guns, you have to pay the price for them. And anyway, every GK squad pays a different price for different equipment depending upon it's battlefield role (i.e. Purifiers get Falchions cheaper than Strike Squads because Purifiers are anti-infanty assault, but Strike squads can score, and thus Falchions are more useful for them as they won't be charging as much and thus need the extra attacks to dissuade would-be assaulters).

[DarkLink]

The only recosting I think would be in order is swapping psycannon and Incinerator prices on GKSS. Psycannons are way better than Incinerators, yet cheaper for some reason. Though that doesn't necessarily mean Psycannons have to go to 20pts. And now that you mention it, seeing as Psycannons are 20-25pts on Paladin/Terminators then the current 10 would be perfectly reasonable. So instead I'd just drop the cost of Incinerators from 20pts, since there's not much reason to take Incinerators over Psycannons normally, as good as Incinerators are.



That aside though, psilencers are useless. There is literally no reason to ever take them under any circumstances. That in and of itself inherently proves they have to be changed. You can't argue with that, at least not in a logical, sensible manner.

I can appreciate what you're saying about being fluffy and all that, but that's no reason why the weapon shouldn't be at least useable, which psilencers aren't. And it's not like ignoring armor is unfluffy by any means. I mean, GKs carry around Nemesis Force Weapons, despite the fact that all Daemons have Eternal Warrior and invulnerable saves.

Also, keep in mind that weapons should be balanced against all codices. Having a rock to daemon's scissors and everyone else's paper means that that weapon will be useless unless you're tailoring your list, which you shouldn't. Ergo, just slapping a "reroll wounds against Daemons" is stupid. That's just lazy game design. Luckily Ward didn't go too overboard on that junk with the new codex, with a handful of exceptions.




As an alternative, how about retaining the old 'ignore invulnerable saves' rule for psilencers, plus AP2. Without the high AP, ignoring invulnerable saves is basically useless, but combined you have a weapon worth taking. The high AP makes useful against Marines in general, at the expense of losing a bit of anti tank as you're not taking psycannons. It's extremely useful against Daemons, since they rely a lot on invulnerable saves. And the fact that it's also very useful against certain units like Terminators is just something that makes the weapon worth taking compared to a psycannon.

That would be a fluffy weapon (not that the other one wouldn't be. Funny thing about fluff is how flexible it is), and one that most people would seriously consider taking in a unit or two. As it currently stands, I'll be very surprised to ever see an actual modeled and painted psilencer in real life, ever.

[Xas]

just switching it over to assoult would be a great deal (or keep the current ROF as assoult and give them double that as heavy like the psycannon).

the niche would still be very small (stormbolters, anyone?!?) but at least the weapon would be usefull (and quite devastating on a relentless terminator!)


another idea would be to make them poison 2+ (instead of the anti-deamon rule). it would still be most powerfull against greater deamons but also ahve quite a punch against normal infantry (wounding on 2+, rerolling instead of 3+ or 4+ depending on T).

[MaltonNecromancer]

You're too used to thinking about fighting MEQ/mech. Take off your metagame goggles and look at Incinerators for what they are: quite simply the best anti-infantry assault-range weapon in the game bar none. Against every army except Marines they auto hit, wound on 2+ and allow no saves of any kind. When assaulting non-MEQ infantry there is literally No Better Weapon. Which is the point. The higher price is because they seriously improve GKSS in assault. It's cheap to just have Strike Squads as they come, and they're very good, point-for-point. But: the high point costs of the assault options is there to ensure that you never have too many seriously assaulty troops that can score objectives.

And yes, you would never take Psilencers except against Daemons. Oh well. Can't honestly say I care at all. Most of the other options are superb, and every army has fluffy-but-pointless things in them.

Bottom line: that Great Unclean One who is, to all intents and purposes, indestructible? Not so much against a Psilencer. You may bemoan it's uslessness, but it is what it is, and I actually don't think it needs changing. The GK's have their options, and the lack of an AP 2 or 3 weapon (which you see as a weakness) is, I rather fancy, quite a nice piece of game design that keeps the GKs from being just another Imperial copypasta. If you're used to regular Marines you'll have to use *gasp* tactics in order to compensate ! (A remarkable idea, I know!)

Stop trying to turn them from GK back into Marines! We already have BA and SW and generic Marines, and everyone already says those three armies are all the same (which is like saying Ryu is the same as Ken is the same as Dan is the same as Akuma is the same as Sagat is the same as Sakura is the same as Captain America is the same as Cyclops: obviously true to those on the outside (because they all have the same three key specials - hadoken, shoryuken, tatsumakishinpukyuaku), and obviously false to those in the know (who understand that the frame rate, hitbox size, lag time, and combo potential of each character is wildly different, even in two characters as seemingly similar as Ken and Ryu. Street Fighter II was a looooooong time ago...) Let the GKs have their weird, functionally pointless gun!

[GM Rex Nihilo]

Either heavy but 36 inch range or assault 24, but currently completely useless!

[Lockark]

And yes, you would never take Psilencers except against Daemons. Oh well. Can't honestly say I care at all. Most of the other options are superb, and every army has fluffy-but-pointless things in them.

Bottom line: that Great Unclean One who is, to all intents and purposes, indestructible? Not so much against a Psilencer. You may bemoan it's uslessness, but it is what it is, and I actually don't think it needs changing. The GK's have their options, and the lack of an AP 2 or 3 weapon (which you see as a weakness) is, I rather fancy, quite a nice piece of game design that keeps the GKs from being just another Imperial copypasta. If you're used to regular Marines you'll have to use *gasp* tactics in order to compensate ! (A remarkable idea, I know!)

Stop trying to turn them from GK back into Marines! We already have BA and SW and generic Marines, and everyone already says those three armies are all the same (which is like saying Ryu is the same as Ken is the same as Dan is the same as Akuma is the same as Sagat is the same as Sakura is the same as Captain America is the same as Cyclops: obviously true to those on the outside (because they all have the same three key specials - hadoken, shoryuken, tatsumakishinpukyuaku), and obviously false to those in the know (who understand that the frame rate, hitbox size, lag time, and combo potential of each character is wildly different, even in two characters as seemingly similar as Ken and Ryu. Street Fighter II was a looooooong time ago...) Let the GKs have their weird, functionally pointless gun!

Your argument makes no sense. I can sum up that wall of text in a single sentence.

"Grey Knight Silencer's should be useless, because if it did something useful it would suddenly turn greyknights into every other Space Marine army."

Oh. That and **** demons, Because if you play deamon that was your 1st mistake. so who cares if not their is yes ANOTHER army that can easily tailor ageist your army.



I can't disagree more. A Codex should have as many good options as possible, and not have a bunch of "no-brainier" options that just makes a army for you. A codex should be able to make a handful a different variation on the same army so you can change up your play style. It also helps the codex age better and avoid becoming mono-build.

[Slug]

Personally, of all the ideas here the only one that sounds decent to me is changing it to ignores invulnerable saves, however if you made it ap2 or maybe even ap3 than it turns from a demon hunting weapon into a terminator/space marine hunting weapon, which is not what its meant to be.
The trouble with GK is that all the anti demon stuff is great because it stays true to the fluff, but demons play so differently to other armies that tailoring your army to be devastating against demons will mean that most other armies will shred your's. But, to be honest that is somewhat out fault for using mech / the fault of the main rule book for making mech so powerful over foot lists.

[DarkLink]

You're too used to thinking about fighting MEQ/mech. Take off your metagame goggles and look at Incinerators for what they are:

How about we drop the condescending "oh, you're a silly narrow minded competitive player who doesn't know what he's talking about" attitude, which is pretty ironic since I've got a few years experience playing around with Grey Knights with Incinerators, and now with the new codex I've done plenty of playing around with GKs with psycannons. I can tell you, from extensive personal experience, which is better 90% of the time. Sure, Incinerators might be able to kill Gaunts better than Psycannons, but I've never been afraid of Gaunts in the first place so that's a weak argument.

quite simply the best anti-infantry assault-range weapon in the game bar none. Against every army except Marines they auto hit, wound on 2+ and allow no saves of any kind. When assaulting non-MEQ infantry there is literally No Better Weapon. Which is the point. The higher price is because they seriously improve GKSS in assault. It's cheap to just have Strike Squads as they come, and they're very good, point-for-point. But: the high point costs of the assault options is there to ensure that you never have too many seriously assaulty troops that can score objectives.

And yet, there's still no reason to take Incinerators over Psycannons, except maybe on Interceptors and even then I wouldn't ever actually do it. Maybe one unit per army, maybe.

See, you're probably going to get one shot with the Incinerators per game. I used Incinerators in Land Raiders, and it's one maybe two shots per game. Less of a big deal last edition because you spend more time hiding in Land Raiders, but now I only ever get in my Rhinos when I really really need to.

So, while you will get one shooting phase where you can do a bunch of Str 6 hits, maybe two if you're lucky, you could be getting just as many Str 7 shots over the course of the game. And since GKs are already really, really good at mowing down infantry, the flexibility the Psycannon's extra strength and range grants you makes Incinerators basically redundant.

So, like I said, Incinerators are good, sure. But Psycannons are simply better against virtually everything in the game.

And yes, you would never take Psilencers except against Daemons. Oh well. Can't honestly say I care at all. Most of the other options are superb, and every army has fluffy-but-pointless things in them.

Bottom line: that Great Unclean One who is, to all intents and purposes, indestructible? Not so much against a Psilencer. You may bemoan it's uslessness, but it is what it is, and I actually don't think it needs changing. The GK's have their options, and the lack of an AP 2 or 3 weapon (which you see as a weakness) is, I rather fancy, quite a nice piece of game design that keeps the GKs from being just another Imperial copypasta.

Really? Nothing here makes any sense. Like I said, you cannot coherently argue that the psilencer is perfectly fine as it currently is.

If you're used to regular Marines you'll have to use *gasp* tactics in order to compensate ! (A remarkable idea, I know!)

Dude, I've never played normal Marines. I just want to take an option that is completely and utter useless, and make it something worth taking. So chill out, and stop being a douche about it.

Stop trying to turn them from GK back into Marines! We already have BA and SW and generic Marines, and everyone already says those three armies are all the same

I don't see how you could possible think that changing a single weapon could make GKs anything like the other Marine armies. Other Marine armies themselves play very differently from each other as is, and Grey Knights literally share nothing in common with any of them beyond similar saves, to hit and to wound.

In fact, by your argument do DE play like an Imperial army, simply because they have a lot of high AP shooting? Because that argument makes about as much sense as the one you're trying to make.

Let the GKs have their weird, functionally pointless gun!

Why? There is absolutely no logical reason to come to this conclusion. It makes no sense.

[harveydent]

incinerator = anti-troop, short range, fire while moving, variable cost
psycannon = anti-troop, anti-tank, medium range, variable rof, fire while moving, variable cost
psilencer = anti-troop, medium range, high rof, stationary firing, bonus vs. large daemons, variable cost

the psilencer kind of falls short because 1) it doesn't do anything that the other weapons don't already do and 2) you can't fire it on the move.

if they wanted to make psilencers more or less equal, and help incinerators a little, then they should have made the psycannon move-or-fire, and psilencers able to fire while moving.

another option would be to make the two firing modes for psycannons like this:
heavy 4, s7 ap4 rending, 24"
assault 1, s7 ap4 rending, 24" blast

and then change the psilencer to this:
assault 6, s4 ap-, wounds daemons on 4+, 24"

this way you would actually be forced to choose between psilence'rs high rof and psycannon's low rof/lack of mobility PLUS you would have an incentive to use incinerators.

an added bonus would be changing the heavy versions of the psycannon/psilencer so that they didn't completely suck... like this:

heavy psycannon: heavy 4, s7 ap4 rending, blast, 24"
gatling psilencer: assault 18, s4 ap-, wounds daemons on 4+, 24"