Are SoB's that bad or are people just being sobs?

[Kawauso]

I really don't understand people saying that this new Faith system is so much better or that the old one was in any way confusing.

And I don't even play Sisters.

My opponent who regularly does always had a well-displayed tally of his faith points and always kept it properly updated. I could never remember which powers required rolls over or under the unit sizes, but it's not like I was ever surprised by what the powers did after playing with him a few times (though, granted, it's difficult for it to sink in just how -tough- some of those units could get with some acts - like the 3++...saw a small squad of Seraphim hold up an assault termy squad for an entire game!).

The new system just...sucks. It doesn't scale with the army and relies a -lot- more on random chance...and it's no simpler than the old system.

IMHO they should have just stuck with the old way for calculating faith points and changed it to a LD test to 'simplify' things...maybe tweak a few of the powers. I don't think it's all that bad that each unit has its own 'type' of AoF now...but some of them just suck, and almost all of them only do one thing, which really kills versatility.

I would have liked to see it handled more like GK psychic powers were. Everyone gets hammerhand (which has the potential to always be useful) and force weapons, and their own power that compliments whatever sort of unit they are. Instead, sister units all get only 1 power each which typically has only 1 use...oh, and they may not be able to use it, since only D6 units in the army per turn even get to attempt their powers. And they can't use powers in the opponent's turn...geez.

Oh, and why the Sisters don't have -any- psychic defense any more is beyond me.

I really wanted this codex to be half-decent for the sake of playing games against my buddy, but it just looks like a colossal letdown.

[Allistor Preist]

The old system confused a lot of non-WH players, so I will concede that this system looks sipler at its core.

1d6 faith points, possible reroll.
5+ with modifier to activate, although some of the modifiers are poorly phrased or thought out.
Activates any act available to the unit, which means the unit's act or the canoness's.

Pretty simple compared to roll over for this, under for that, LD for this and which who is faithful how?

But it still suffers from needless complications and several new issues.

For example, how useful is Divine Guadiance with MM equiped retributors? Or Eternal Crusade if you take assault weapons or gear for close combat? Even as you start typeing the question, "Why do that when Eternal Crusade with MM is so much better?" but that is my point. Too many units have to be built a specific way to get a real benifit from the acts.

Want a multi melta retributor squad? or a command squad with assault weapons? Or to put your Canoness with the command squad? Guess you'll save a few faith points there.

Also, as it stands, where to spend faith points is not a choice so much as a hierarch. 1) Dominions and Seraphim in shooting range 2) Repentia in close combat or heavy bolter rets 3) Basic Sister Squads in retreat 4) Command squads that need to move 5) basic sisters shooting or in CC 6) the canoness or celestians in close combat. If the cannoness is with a celestian squad or repentia, bump her up to slot 4.

But it is not the fact that the acts are less reliable, more limited in use or less spectacular, it is that they are all three. Well that and the fact that others get much more reliable versions of similar abilities.

[doom-kitten]

In my opinion the acts are very weakly playtested with a couple exceptions such as dominions, Retributors with MM will likely not be an issue as I've never seen it done before and have never used MM with mine either. It seems pointless to equip them that way, my reasoning is at 5 pts a HB they will never be to costly to field and with luck that Rending can actually glance a Landraider or similiarly armoured vehicle, roll of 6 plus Strenth 5 with a d3 extra. At a range of 36 inches they can reach out and touch without really having to move unlike a MM which has to get closer or wait for the enemy to blunder into it.
The old Faith system was not confusing and I'll never understand why people argue it was, first of all you got a point for every faithful unit basically any battle sister unit and character, if you paid for the superior of course. There was no +1 or +2 to the roll is was just 2d6 needing to roll under or over squad count depending on Faith and you could get faith points back when your characters and squad leaders died. Anyone I ever player count onto it quick and could always guess what powers I intended to use.
My view of the new army is that most sisters list are going to be almost identical because theres limited actually useful squads, I imagine Celestine and Kirynrov are going to frequent lists and while likely be a permanent addition as their both nasty and benifit the army more than any of it's other HQ's, the canoness is just garbage.

[Melissia]

To get that retributor you have to give up an Exorcist, which is better. Even with Rending, Exorcists still penetrate more often (8+d6 versos 5+d6 with a chance of 5+d6+d3, on average only just over one heavy bolter shot out of four heavy bolters will rend each round, which means one or two shots will penetrate AV11-AV13 armor)

[DarkLink]

Actually, exorcist vs. retributors is a good question now.


I'd first off assume that you have enough melta in the rest of your list to deal with Land Raiders, so we're mostly looking at killing AV11-13. Here's a comparison of retributors with 4 heavy bolters plus rending and exorcists averages against each armor value, ignoring cover:

AV 11
Exorcist
3.5 shots, 2.33 hits, .39 glances and 1.17 pens with AP 1. That gives .91 Immobilized/Destroyed results.

Retributors
12 shots, 8 hits, 1.33 pens, .67 Immobilized/Destroyed.

AV 12
Exorcist
3.5 shots, 2.33 hits, .39 glances and .77 pens with AP 1. That gives .65 Immobilized/Destroyed results.

Retributors
12 shots, 8 hits, .45 glances and .89 pens, .52 Immobilized/Destroyed.


AV 13
Exorcist
3.5 shots, 2.33 hits, .39 glances and .39 pens with AP 1. That gives .39 Immobilized/Destroyed results.

Retributors
12 shots, 8 hits, .45 glances and.45 pens, .3 Immobilized/Destroyed.



So, yeah, the Exorcist is better anti-tank, but not actually by that huge a margin. I don't think you'd lose too much in swapping out one Exorcist for some heavy bolter Retributors, and you'd gain some anti-infantry. Of course, Retributors are pretty much immobile, and have a shorter range. And you have to use Faith to get Rending. 10 Retributors with 4 Heavy Bolters is only 10pts more than an Exorcist, though, so not a bad deal at all.


Edit: Finally saw a copy, and man what a horrible codex. It's as bad as the old Daemonhunters codex, and that's saying something. Literally the only good units are Celestine, Uriah, Deathcult assassins Seraphim, Dominions, Exorcists and Retributors. None of those score, they compete with each other for a limited number of spots, and you can't make a good army out of just those units. I'm glad Sisters aren't my main army, I can afford to just keep the models on my shelf until they get a real codex someday.


Edit again:
Just for comparison, here's how many Marines each unit kills per turn, with and without cover and ignoring Rending:

With Cover
Exorcist
3.5 shots, 2.33 hits, 1.94 wounds, .97 dead.

Retributors (outside of Bolter range)
12 shots, 8 hits, 5.33 wounds, 1.78 dead.

Retributors (24" range)
12 heavy bolter and 6 bolter shots, 8 heavy bolter hits and 4 bolter hits, 7.33 wounds, 2.44 dead.


Without Cover
Exorcist
3.5 shots, 2.33 hits, 1.94 wounds, 1.94 dead.

Retributors (outside of Bolter range)
12 shots, 8 hits, 5.33 wounds, 1.78 dead.

Retributors (24" range)
12 heavy bolter and 6 bolter shots, 8 heavy bolter hits and 4 bolter hits, 7.33 wounds, 2.44 dead.


So Retributors are, expectantly, better anti-infantry in most cases even against Marines and even without Rending from Faith.

[dvs1]

Am I the only one considering penitent engines? Yes they're av 11 open topped and 3 aint so scary...thats why you take 9. Scouting dominion squads with MM immolators to take out the early threats to the engines while they run willy nilly towards the enemy. They themselves are excellnt AT up close as well as horde clearance.

[andrewm9]

Am I the only one considering penitent engines? Yes they're av 11 open topped and 3 aint so scary...thats why you take 9. Scouting dominion squads with MM immolators to take out the early threats to the engines while they run willy nilly towards the enemy. They themselves are excellnt AT up close as well as horde clearance.

Consider this. If one of your Penitent engines gets penetrated by any ranged weapon it dies on a 3+ (2+ if they use AP1 weapons) unless they are AP - then it dies on a 4+. For thier high point cost and considering how slow they are are they really worth it? Now your local meta may be different than mine but with all of the melta running around where I live, those Penitent engines will just die.

[DarkLink]

That's also like 800pts of easy kills. Ork Kan walls are pretty good, but compared to those Pentinent Engines just can't compete.

[eldargal]

Yep, penitent engines have gone from being utter rubbish no one used to being utter rubbish no one will use.

[dvs1]

thats why i would spam 3 dominion squads with melta and MM immolators to attempt to deal with threats. Can't we run the engines up behind some BS sqauds of in their rhinos for cover? Saying they suck just cause of AV 11 open topped aint right, cause too many people use devil fish, vypers , and WW etc. They are expensive, but i think may have some uses. Point taken though, they are expensive. I'll try em out this weekend. Something a little different than the already established builds.