A (small) thesis on racial goals in the 40Kverse...

[Kawauso]

I find two major issues with this reasoning (which I realize is the reasoning given in the much-maligned paragraph in question, so I'm not trying to attack you, Kawauso... just Ward). Firstly, why would the Necron have to retreat to lick their wounds? The damaged ones would've teleported back to home base, and the remainder would've seen the apparently-wrecked Blood Angels as easy harvesting.

Secondly, while I accept that the Blood Angels are one of the more honorable SM groups (at least, as honorable as an army of barely-restrained bloodthirsty psychopaths can be), their first duty is the defense of Mankind. You know, Purge the Heretic, the Mutant, and the Xenos? Why would they abandon their duty to their Emperor and their Primarch just because the Necron helped wipe out another enemy of Mankind?

The whole thing just strikes me as being completely out of character for both armies. But all of this has been said before.

I just don't see it that way.

I mean, first of all, it's a metaphorical 'licking of wounds' for the Necrons retreat. I find it perfectly reasonable to think that they might not have the necessary resources available to defeat the Blood Angels after taking on a hive fleet. Yes, all of their damaged brethren would have phased out - doesn't mean that they'd have enough left on the battlefield to continue what would turn into a protracted campaign.

Regarding the Blood Angels - all branches of the Imperium (including the Inquisition) 'abandon their duty' in this manner -all the time-. Alliances of convenience are made tons of times in 40k fiction...because realistically it's impossible to expect Imperial forces to try to kill everything non-human at all times ever. There are simply times where it's more tactically sound to ally with the enemy of your enemy, for example.

Think of how many times Marines have 'allied' with Eldar, for example. Or in one of the Ciaphas Cain novels, an entire book is spent where the deployed IG forces are doing everything in their power to -avoid- starting a shooting war with the Tau, who have all but conquered the planet through political guile.

Also, no offense taken.
I know this particular example is a point of contention for a lot of people, but I've never really had a problem with it...just like I've never had a problem with transport vehicle scale in 40k, for example (i.e. Rhinos are actually larger than they probably need to be, not smaller), but that's something that a lot of people seem to find odd. I just like getting my 2 cents in on these points from time to time.

[eldargal]

Neither Necrons nor Blood Angels are stupid. If the Necrons calculated that a battle with the Blood Angels would have put their long term interests at risk, they could easily choose to back off. While the Blood Angels would weigh the risk of an unsupported assault on a Necron force of unknown strength with the possibilities of running out of ammunition, losing geneseed etc all against a foe that had just aided them and wasn't showing any hostile intent for their own reasons.

I think it shows that both Space Marines and Necrons aren't stupid.

[Kawauso]

Exactly. I think people are looking at the fluff too absolutely when they have issues with temporary alliances like these.

It's not like the BA would ever have a long-term alliance with any xeno faction...-that- is something that would never, ever happen.

Remember the Imperium does hypocritical, heretical things all the time if it suits its own interests.

[Wildeybeast]

In my opinion, if Ahriman unlocks the key to the Webways, and gets to the Black Library, its game over. However, given Ahriman has not achieved Daemonhood, I reckon this means Tzeentch/Magnus is still p*ssed with him about the Rubric - and also a further fall will strengthen Slaanesh. I don't think Ahriman will succeed without Tzeentch so I think the Eldar will carry on.


Tau.

I can't even begin to talk credibly about them. Suffice to say, I don't see them as rampantly expansionist, nor a threat to the Empire of the magnitude of the big three - Chaos, Tyranids, Necrons. Indeed Tau have to deal with these things as well at some point. Sorry to disappoint the Tau enthusiasts, I'll defer to you here.

1) SPOILER ALERT. Having just finished the HH novel Thousand Sons, it seems clear to me that Ahriman has not achieved demon hood because he is still, on some level loyal to the Emperor. The end of the book makes it clear that everything he does subsequent to their 'fall' is to prove that his legion was always loyal. I think he is simply using Chaos to his own ends, and whilst no one does so without being at least partially corrupted, I don't think that Ahriman is in thrall to Chaos. He has learned from Magnus' mistakes, and knows that whilst he can never control it, he can use for his own devices.

2)Tau. Their goal is simple. Unite all races under the ideal of the greater good. The Tau live, quite literally, in a state of blissful harmony and cooperation where all problems are overcome through their combined strength and everyone works towards the progression of their race. They wish for all races to work together, in harmony, to better themselves and others. The downside to this is that not everyone agrees with them. They have learned (painfully) that races like the Orks and Tyranids can never be integrated into their philosophy and way of life and will always seek to destroy it, thus they must be exterminated. Some races willingly accept the benefits of the greater good and peacefully become 'client' races of the Tau. Some, such as humanity, will accpet the benefits of the greater good, but may need forcibly 'enlightening'. There are a raft of conquered human worlds on the edge of Tau space, where the humans have seen the benefits of Tau techonology, freedom and protection and have happliy embraced their new role, relquishing all ties to the Imperium. So, whilst the Tau are not overtly agressive, they see it as their manifest destiny to unite the galaxy under the greater good, and will do so through force if peacefull means prove unsuccesful. However, the destruction of other races is only an absolute last resort (they spent a long time trying to reason with the Orks after first contact before they finally realised how futile it was).

As to the threat the Tau psoe to the Imperium, it is comparitively pathetic. They are just one of dozens of alien races carving themselves empires in the eastern fringe and they pose no more of a threat than any of the others. The problem is in their potential. In the space of 5000 years they have gone from primitive tribal groups with basic gunpowder weaponry to possessing technology that rivals that of the imperium and is in many ways better and which is continually improving. Their empire, whilst small, is expanding at rapid rate and their unity of purpose means they will only continue to grow as threat. The Imperim has already staged one failed crusade against them (Damocles) and has realised their worth as noble opponents and their use as a buffer against the Tyranids. The two are not in state of open war, but the Tau continue to annex Imperial worlds, which ineveitably leads to conflict.

[Michael_maggs]

1) SPOILER ALERT. Having just finished the HH novel Thousand Sons, it seems clear to me that Ahriman has not achieved demon hood because he is still, on some level loyal to the Emperor. The end of the book makes it clear that everything he does subsequent to their 'fall' is to prove that his legion was always loyal. I think he is simply using Chaos to his own ends, and whilst no one does so without being at least partially corrupted, I don't think that Ahriman is in thrall to Chaos. He has learned from Magnus' mistakes, and knows that whilst he can never control it, he can use for his own devices.

although i would agree that Ahriman is not in the thrall of chaos i would say he is definatly a puppet of tzeentch. when Ahriman cast the rubic Magnus was about to kill him when tzeentch interviened and Ahriman was instead exiled to complete an impossible task; to learn the ways of tzeentch. as the chaotic mutations that afflicted his legion bare personal pain to Ahriman in the form of his dead brother i can only imagine he relished the chance if it ment he could take his revenge. this ambition has caused more of a personal submition to tzeentch than any ambition to overthrow the imperium.

i would also have to part disagree with the racial goals of chaos and say that they are more akin to DE in that each champion fall for a different reason.

ie. both Abbadon and Magnus want to overthrow the imperium but only Abbadon wants to rule by following the path of his mentor Horus while Magnus wants to obliterate the Imperium for its shortsightedness in using the warp and the persicution of his kind amplified by exile to the planet of the sorcerers

other examples are Kharn who kills to forget the incident on Prospero where a loyalist thousand son implants guilt and regret over his weakness to resist the temptations of chaos (Age of Darkness). and lets not forget the guy owho calls himself "Alpharius" who seems to be waging a personal vendetta against the ultramarines and their successor chapters.

I would say that although the overriding goal of chaos as an entity is to overthrow and enslave the Imperium as it presents the largest threat in the form of a immovable bastion centred around the faith in an all saving diety but for the material agents the aims are highly individualistic and personalised.

[Michael_maggs]

In my opinion, if Ahriman unlocks the key to the Webways, and gets to the Black Library, its game over. However, given Ahriman has not achieved Daemonhood, I reckon this means Tzeentch/Magnus is still p*ssed with him about the Rubric - and also a further fall will strengthen Slaanesh. I don't think Ahriman will succeed without Tzeentch so I think the Eldar will carry on.

by the way in the third Blood ravens book Ahriman forced his way into the black library but was repelled by a temporary alliance between the blood angels and the harlequins. but the black library isn't Ahrimans real goal but just a step towards is ultimate ambition: to enter the Library of tzeentch, where the changer of ways resides and the only possibilityof completing his impossible task.

it would be interesting to see how, if it ever was possible, for ahriman to complete this as it would either greatly strengthen the power of chaos, as Ahrimans knowledge would equal Tzeentch, or weaken it as both would enter eternal conflict, i am assuming the power Ahriman would need to enter the forbidden library would elevate him beyond the status of a demon prince to the level of a chaos god

[Wildeybeast]

and lets not forget the guy owho calls himself "Alpharius" who seems to be waging a personal vendetta against the ultramarines and their successor chapters.

As in Alpharius, primarch of the Alpha legion, or someone else wandering around using his name?

[Drew da Destroya]

Exactly. I think people are looking at the fluff too absolutely when they have issues with temporary alliances like these.

It's not like the BA would ever have a long-term alliance with any xeno faction...-that- is something that would never, ever happen.

Remember the Imperium does hypocritical, heretical things all the time if it suits its own interests.

Both you and Eldargal bring up excellent points. I'd like to point out that I don't actually have a problem with the alliance of convenience as it stands... it makes plenty of sense given the situation. I just don't like the aftermath at all.

Both of you also bring up excellent points as to why neither faction chooses to pursue combat after the Tyranid lose... my problem is that none of those points are brought up by the text itself. All we get is that the Necron back off due to casualties, and the Blood Angels don't want to finish off a former temporary ally.

The text puts the Necron in a vulnerable spot, where the (inferring from the text, because the Necron wouldn't be retreating if they weren't the inferior force) superior Blood Angel forces could deal a truly crippling blow to them, but instead the Blood Angels tip their caps and leave the planet. It's just odd. Why leave an enemy down, but not out, when you're apparently in the position to finish them? Why leave them to regroup, get stronger, and then take you out? It's just bad strategy.

[Kawauso]

The honourable thing to do is not always the intelligent or logical thing to do.

Poor Eddard Stark.

[daboarder]

Neither Necrons nor Blood Angels are stupid. If the Necrons calculated that a battle with the Blood Angels would have put their long term interests at risk, they could easily choose to back off. While the Blood Angels would weigh the risk of an unsupported assault on a Necron force of unknown strength with the possibilities of running out of ammunition, losing geneseed etc all against a foe that had just aided them and wasn't showing any hostile intent for their own reasons.

I think it shows that both Space Marines and Necrons aren't stupid.

I dunno Eldargirl, they may not be stupid but they are rabidly Xenophobic and while I can understand an alliance of convenience as soon as its done they will happly go back to slaughtering each other even if it means their own destruction "suffer not the alien".