Eldar Phantom Titan - IA2 - Second Edition

[Defenestratus]

That CCW has the same rules as the regular titan CCW except that its got a dumb starcannon on it. Woopdee.

I agree that the phantom is beastly. It should be. Sadly it still gets ROFLstomped by my friend Imperator/Emperor titan that launches over 24 Str D pie plates a turn. Oh well, at least it will last longer than half a shooting phase now! :P

I have to disagree about the Vampire though. Its still overcosted crap. If what DrLove says is true, that the designers just intend the holofields to give you the 4+ save against Hydras, then its the most overcosted, underperforming piece of wargear crap in the entire 40k universe. It makes my vamp hunter sadface.

However, my group had decided - even before this book came out, that the holofield work against hits, then the flyer 4+ cover save works against penetrations/glances so they are worth a damn.

We also determined that AP1 and Str D +1 on the damage charts stack since there's no other difference between AP2 and AP1 otherwise and if it didn't stack then it should just be AP2 instead

Ghost, don't worry, I'm working on turning Sean around on playing against your Phantom. He's got that reaver and it can put up a decent fight.

(BTW a real good way to get rid of those peksy void shields is to use that ghost walker formation with 10 war walkers with all scatter lasers. Pop em up in front of the Titan, pewpewpew... all the void shields are gone. Thats how I deal with the imperator - followed up by 20 fire dragons who barely get the job done)

[Ghost of War]

Once again DrLove.. wait till you get the book

the holofield states in black and white.. negates hits. On the entry for the flyer, it states it also gets a 4+ inv against damage delt

AP1 and Destoryer are black and white states in multiple places they that DO NOT stack .. so that one is put the bed. So yes your righ tthere.

They literally took the arguement your stating.. the eldar fields arguement that is.. and spelled it out in black and white plain english.

[DrLove42]

This is the ultimate RAW vs RAI here

We have RAW vs REATDMTTBSBHIPCI (Rules Exactly As The Devloper Meant Them To Be, Said By Him, In Person Confirming It)

Again I don't have the rule book.

But the guy who wrote the rules, when asked, specifically about about this exact thing, in person said they don't stack. I don't see how this can be debated.

And again...i don't have any of the books on me. The Apoc book and Imp Armour Apoc 1 were written in the dying days of 4th ed. Flat out fliers didn't have saves. They downgraded all hits to glancing. the 4+ was godly. Now everyone gets it as a cover save. One of the biggest GW rules philosophies is that models can only have 1 save (excluding FNP)

Trust me - I wish you were right. I wish GW would give them two saves. But as it stands they don't according to REATDMTTBSBHIPCI

[Ghost of War]

But the guy who wrote the rules, when asked, specifically about about this exact thing, in person said they don't stack. I don't see how this can be debated.

Because it wouldnt stand up in any gaming circle when the question comes up. Your word while it may be well and good - equates to what most people hear s "a local redshirt told me xxxxxxx"

And its not RAW vs RAWEREAFDAFDSFGDS - get the final print of the book and just read it :P

We can debate till hell freezes over once we both have the final print material - until then its impotent.

-the unfortunate simple fact is to get pretty much anyone to play against a Phantom who does not own a Warlord.. we will likely have to play the fields exactly how your stating them. With a couple other nerfs to how its written up as is.

[SotonShades]

p126.
ELDAR TITAN HOLOFIELDs
Everytime a hit is scored against an Eldar Titan that moved in the previous turn, the Eldar player rolls a dice. On a result of a 4 or more, the hit is discarded. If a Titan did not move it in the previous turn, it does not get this holo field save.

Entries on models with a titan holofield.

ELDAR TITAN HOLOFIELDS: As long a sa vehicle moved in the previous turn, it gains a 4+ invulnerable save against attacks.

.................................................. .................................................. ..


IMPROVED ELDAR TITAN HOLOFIELDS
If the titan has not moved.. it has a 4+ inv
IF the titan moved at all.. that save becomes a 3+ invuln save
Also.. if something goes into hand to hand vs a Phantom titan that has moved (and its not a Gargant or enempy super heavy walker) it hits the Eldar titan on 6s.

2 questions (more for me to get things straight in my own mind than anything);

Firstly, are both deffinitions of ETHs in the same book? When that happens in GW and FW books, rules in a unit entry trump rules in the codex/book trump rules in the BRB. This would suggest, to me, that if the vehicle is simply listed as having Eldar Titan Holofields, they discard hits against them on a 4+ if they moved in the previous turn. However, if in their unit entry they have the second definition saying they they get a 4+ invulnerable save if they moved, they only get a 4+ invulnerable save if they moved and not ignore hits on a 4+ and then get a 4+ invulnerable save. This works whether it is titans or flyers. For the flyers, you don't get an invulnerable save AND a cover save at any point in 40k. Depending on if they have the deffinition in their entry saying you can ignore hits, then you would potentially ignore the hit and then get the cover save.

Next, does the Phantom have Eldar Titan Holofields (ETHs) or Improved Eldar Titan Holofields (IETHs)? If it only had the later, then only that deffinitition applies; granting a 4+ invulnerable save, or 3+ if it moved in the previous movement phase. The previous point becomes completely invalid as it doesn't have ETHs. Their rules, whichever deffinition or combination you are using, are completely replaced.


BRB says that vehicles take cover saves when they take a glancing or penetrating hit (Pg 62, 1st Column, last but 2 paragraph), so the vehicles would still get their Primary Weapon saves (which are taken after the damage table roll has been made, so obviously after the precious cover/invulnerable saves have been taken) as an exception to only getting a single save against an attack, more akin to a FNP save.

[Gotthammer]

There are Eldar Titan Holofields (which the Phantom doesn't have), with a 4+ 'discard'/Invulnerable if you moved, and Enhanced Eldar Titan Holofields (which the Phantom has) with a 4+ invulnerable all the time, 3++ if you move.

So regardless of stacking, the Phantom only has one of those pieces of equipment, so would only get one save.


As it happens [URL="http://collegiatitanica.blogspot.com/2011/04/arena-of-death-phantom-vs-warlord.html"]I did a mock battle with the Phantom's beta rules against a Warlord[/URL]. It's power is partly dependant on distance, loadouts, and whether you stack StrD and AP1.
The results would be much different now with the improvement to Spirit Guides and the Invuln save, so I think they'd still be evenly matched now even without AP1/StrD stacking.

[eldargal]

I didn't think the Imperator Titan had official rules yet? Also the Phantom has always been the match for Warlords going back to Epic, not the Emperor so I wouldn't expect it to take down one of those on its own.

I'm not sure of the issue with holofield saves, a save which negates hits and then another save against damage rolls aren't the same as getting two saves against hits as you would with flat out + holo fields? Its early in the morning so perhaps I'm just misreading something.

[Gir]

I didn't think the Imperator Titan had official rules yet?

GW website. That sucker is 4000pts.

[eldargal]

Oh, must have missed it scrolling through the two hundred odd Imperium datasheets to find the four Eldar ones.

Still, I wouldn't expect a Phantom to go toe to toe with a Emperor class titan and survive so I'm ok with that. I wish my copy would arrive, it was dispatched on the 29th and people in other countries are getting theirs before me. Bloody Royal Mail.

Also my group houseruled AP1 and D to stack regardless of what FW said because we thought it was silly otherwise.

[Ghost of War]

Well yeah we did at my club as well, why even have AP on a destroyer weapon? It's silly.

But.. then again we also realized that the Eldar really had most of the D, and really the only ap1 D (in our club).. so we probally wont make them stack going forward.

Also the Eldar now have the big new kid on the block so I need to throw a few bones now and then to ensure I get to use the big toy