Ork Shooting (don't laugh you'll be scolded)

[eldargal]

So, I made the mistake of loling at Ork shooting on the Lounge Blog on some issue or other which was really just a platform for a fungus infection joke that no one got. Someone pointed out that point per point Orks are as efficient at shooting as Dire Avengers.

10 Dire Avengers @ 120pts:
20 shots, 13.3 hit, 6.7 wound no save to the Ork= 6.7 dead orks or 33.5%.

20 Ork shoota boys @ 120pts:
40 shots, 13.3 hit, 8.8 wound, 4+ save on the DA - 4.4 dead DA or 44%.

But if we take into account casualties caused by the Dire Avengers:

14 Ork shoota boys
28 shots, 9.3 hits, 6.2 wounds, 3.1 dead DA or 31%

So twice as many Orks kill half as Dire Avengers as Dire Avengers kill Orks for a 2% lower efficiency.

Now from here on things get worse.

10 Dire Avengers, Exarch w Bladestorm and twin catapults @ 152 points.
30 shots, 20 hit, 10 wounds, no save so 10 Orks deceased or 40%.

25 Orks with shootas @ 150 points.
50 shots, 16.6 hit, 11.1 wounds, 5 DA deceased or 50%

But if we take into account casualties:
12 Orks shoot 24 shots, 8 hit, 4.6 wounds, 2.3 dead DA or 23%

So am I right to laugh at Ork shooting? Because honestly if they shoot first I'm incompetent.To be honest if I don't have at least one other shooting unit nearby to support the DA and an assault unit to assault the depleted Orks I'm also incompetent. Not to mention parking the DA wave serpent in front of them to foul up assault lines and give them cover and innumerable other factors.

In the three years since the Ork codex was released I've never felt Ork shooting to be a threat and I've never had an army shot up by them. Now I should say I am NOT underestimating Orks, I've just never been given cause to worry about their shooting.

So am I lucky, or is Ork shooting the least worrisome aspect of fighting them?

P.S. Nightspinners > Orks on foot.

[Ulf]

1.: On the blog you said something about fleet being a reason why DA win a shootout against boys with shootas. Can't find it anymore since you (someone else?) edited all your posts to "..." so I can't quote you on it, but you might remember it anyway. How could fleet be a advantage in a pure shootout?

2.: You neglect the big shootas. 36" range and 3 shots at Strength 5 per 10 boys - whos getting the first shots now, eh? I'm not gonna mathhamer it out to the end here, but the avengers lose in a theoretical 1vs1 setting.

3.: You neglect cover. Orks don't have armor, so they go for cover. Try factoring in a meagre 5+ cover save... doesnt look good for the DA.

4.: It's just plain shoota boys pitted against DA,high volume low str shooting specialists. Anything even close to a draw should not be laughed at.

[eldargal]

I didn't mean to say fleet, and then I forgot what I was trying to say. As to big shootas, the initial post was on a point per point basis and involved 30 Orks which cost more than the Dire Avengers did so adding big shootas for even more cost would have swung the comparison out of balance by close to 45 points or something. The only reason I brought in the Exarch and abilities was the fact the points were becoming unbalanced. If you spend a lot more on a fully kitted out shooty Ork mob, then of course it will outshoot a single DAsquad but you are paying 33% more to do it with three times the troops.

I play on fairly terrain heavy boards and even then Orks have trouble finding cover for a whole mob of 20+ without obscuring LOS entirely. But again the comparison was a basic Ork vs DA thing with as few variables as possible.

I deleted the posts because the whole 'yeah, but a 1v1 comparison doesn't work anyway' thing had started. I know, the fact is I wouldn't even be shooting that Ork unit if I wasn't sure I could cripple or destroy it and stop it shooting back in the first place, but that would make a poor comparison.

[DrLove42]

Ork shooting is actually pretty scary some times. Buy into the adage "throw enough **** and something will stick"

Your points vs points thing then all needs to take into account the fact the Orks will probably own in combat.

I think points vs point you should be comparing them against the same target. How many Marines does a squad of DA kill, and how many does an equivilent points cost of Orks kill?

Also it highly amuses me that an Ork with a Rokkit Launcher is as accurate at shooting down aircraft as a Marine...(both needing 6's). I've always thought to shoot a flier you need to hit normally, then roll 6's

[eldargal]

Fair point, I guess I've become too good at not giving the opportunity. It takes a huge lot of poop thrown to stick to a wave serpent or holoFalcon.

I don't try and kill Marines with DA but (I think) a full DA squad with exarch etc. would kill an average of 3.3 Marines to 25 Orks 3.7.

The way I see it Orks on foot are just begging to be shot with nightspinners and even dispersed shots from fire prisms, then bladestormed, shot at by scatter lasers and then assaulted.

[DrLove42]

The way I see it Orks on foot are just begging to be shot with nightspinners and even dispersed shots from fire prisms, then bladestormed, shot at by scatter lasers and then assaulted.

Or Venoms, Cannons, Splinters, Flamer Weapons, Leman Russ Shells, Vindicator Rounds, Whirlwind Shots, Tyrannofaxes...etc.etc...

Basically Orks in the open die :P

[eldargal]

Yup, and Nightspinners are especially good as they have he barrage rule so cover is less effective. Even if the Orks are in cover, well if they are keeping to cover they aren't waaaghing towards my units so I've succeeded in reducing their mobility, another plus for Eldar.

[Ulf]

Big Shootas are only 5 pts a piece, so they work pretty good at equal points. No need to go 33% over the DA, 1:1 is what we're talking about, right?

Any comparison not including upgrade options like the exarch or big shootas would be kinda strange, since nobody uses the units like that. Plus, if the Exarchs do Bladestorm, they can't shoot the next turn, which is pretty bad...

Cover is easy. First, as a shoota boy, you dont care if your enemy has cover, since you dont penetrate his armor anyway. So you can simply walk behind your fellow orks. Second, you don't need to hide all 20+ boys in terrain to get cover - half the unit is enough. Its not that farfetched to assume Orks use cover, it happens, believe me.

Now to back it up with some mathhammering, since thats the only thing kids today believe in:

24 Shoota Boyz
2 Big Gunz
154 Points

10 Dire Avengers
Exarch with twin catapults
Bladestorm
152 Points

Orks are set up in cover, DA are forced to move in due to limited range.

Eldar get first turn, move+run from 36+ inches to 24+ inches distance.
Orks shoot big gunz, 6 shots, 2 hits, 5/3 wounds, 5/6 dead DA.

Eldar move to 18+ inches. (they could instead run get into range 1 turn sooner, but they would be in range of the regular shootas then without being able to shoot them first, so thats a baaaad idea)
Orks shoot. Big gunz kill 5/6 as above.

Eldar move to 18- inches and unleash their bladestorm. 7 1/3 DA shoot 22 shots. 14 2/3 hits, 7 1/3 wounds, 3 2/3 dead Orks after cover saves. Exarch has 5 shots, 5 1/6 hits, 2 1/12 wounds, 1 1/24 dead orks. Lets call that 5 dead Orks.

Orks shoot back. 2 Big shootas kill 5/6 DA as above. 17 Shootas, 34 shots, 11 1/3 hits, 7 5/9 wounds, 3 7/9 dead DA.

So far, we have 2,5 dead DA due to big shootas, plus 3 7/9 due to shootas, lets call that 6 dead DA (60%) vs 5 dead Orks (~21%). I even rounded some numbers in favour of the Eldar. And the DA cant shoot next turn due to bladestorm. I call that a win for the Orks.

[eldargal]

See that's the thing, why would I move the DA into range in the first place? If you are out of range of my shuriken catapults then you are well away from assault so I don't care, I'll just trust to cover and your abyssmal BS to protect me from the big shootas. This is the problem with adding in a majorvariable like a new weapon with a different range, like I said the initial comparison was point per point and then 10 DA vs 30 Orks, so that is what I was working with.

Eldar will hit with two thirds of their shots, Orks will miss with two thirds of theirs. I don't fear Ork shooting.

[Ulf]

Eldar will hit with two thirds of their shots, Orks will miss with two thirds of theirs. I don't fear Ork shooting.

So if you get shot at with BS 1 and 600 shots thats not as bad for you as 6 shots with BS 5?