Why the Dark Eldar can build and deploy 'superheavies'.

[eldargal]

I posted this over on Warseer, decided to post it here too.

I am getting quite irritated at people perpetuating the erroneous idea that larger 'superheavy' vehicles are atithetical to the Dark Eldar background and playstyle. Here is precisely why it is wrong.

[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8d9ed6okRXo"]Dark Eldar Designer Round Table - Miniatures.[/URL] From 6:40 to 6:50 or thereabouts Jes Goodwin says:

..this overall feel of a cloud of stuff all the way from these ones (indicates raiders, Ravagers etc) and actually even though you know even though we've not made models of these we envisage the fact that somewhere above this you'd have raiders or slave barges that are this size (indicates a shape approximately 2-2.5ft long and 1ft tall).

So the father of the Eldar and the author of both Codex: Eldar and Codex: Dark Eldar envisage them having enormous, 'superheavy' vehicles floating about. You can't really argue with that. Then factor in the BFG ships which are vastly larger than anything in 40k scale and we know they build and utilise vessals far larger than anything you will see on the 40k tabletop. If you look carefully at the backdrop to the video you will see a large scale DE ship as well, it and others also appear on boxart like [URL="http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1420352a_99120112011_DERavagerXBox1_873x627.jpg"]this[/URL].

The second point that was brought up in the [URL="http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=320357"]news and rumours section[/URL] recently was that it didn't make sense for the Dark Eldar to have larger vehicles because they couldn't deploy them through the webway because the portals were too small.

The only source cited for this was p13 of the current Codex: Eldar (the one written by Phil Kelly, one of the chaps whoenvisages large DE flyers) where it says that spacecraft are limited to the larger, arterial passages and that most passages are limited to 'strike forces' of infantry and 'small vehicles'. Now this is in a book about Craftworld Eldar who deploy things ranging in size from Vypers to Scorpions, Vampire Raiders and Phantom Titans.

But somehow we are expected to believe the Dark Eldar, who inhabit the largest webway port node with more links accross the galaxy spanning Eldar Empire than any other are going to have trouble deploying anything larger than a void raven. It is nonsense,

Page 8 of the DE codex; 'Some of these gateways into realspace are small and dim, but the arterial portals above the largest city-states blaze with ethereal light. Each can accomodate a pirate fleet with ease...
...Commoragh was originally the greatest of the webway port-cities, able to transport a fleet to any of the most vital planets of the Eldar Empire.
Page 13; Vect transports a Space Marine strike cruiser to Commoragh.
Page 14; A portal large enough to allow transit to two dozen SM strike cruisers is opened above the city.

Returning to the C:E quote, 'small vehicles' means just that, small vehicles. It is merely an assumption that this refers simply to the 'smallest' vehicles, especially since the Eldar are known to deploy much larger craft than anything in the DE codex at present. No one argues that these are antithetical to Craftworld Eldar, yet for some reason the same can't be said of the race occupying the largest webway port city in existence.

It seems obvious to all but the most blinkered and stubborn mind that the Dark Eldar have the capacity to both construct and deploy large (in the 40k sense) vessals and deploy them throughout the galaxy using the Webway. Not only that the author of their current rulebook and the man who invented them both 'envisage' them doing just that so it is quite clearly intended to be a facet of the race, albeit one that is beyond the GW scope of scale (but not beyond Forge Worlds).

I imagine the confusion comes from words like 'titan' and 'superheavy'. The Dark Eldar do not use walkers, so titans in the Craftworld sense would be unfitting but superheavy is a misleading term. Taken literally nothing about the Dark Eldar is superheavy, one imagines even their largest vessals would be constructed of lightweight materials and have anti-grav engines like the raiders. But that is not to say they needn't be large. We know the Dark Eldar assault entire worlds in their largest raids and carry away millions or more at a time, there is simply no way they could do this using only raiders.

So there you have it, precisely why I think it is quite clear that the Dark Eldar are intended to utilise large vessals and the idea that they can't deploy them due to webway constraints is simply unfounded.

Comments, constructive criticism and whatnot welcome.

[Etra]

I watched the youtube clip, and totally, you've got a point - the Dark Eldar could have superheavies.

But because they could have a something doesn't mean they'll have those somethings in any meaningful quantity - would a Dark Eldar pirate fleet you envision be a match for an Imperial crusade fleet?

Or a Tau patrol?

Or an Ork Rok?

What other races do as a manner of routine, the feeling is that would be the exception for the Dark Eldar. That while they could have superheavies, and I'll concede probably do, it wouldn't be common practice for them. The philosophy and play-style of the race is to be nimble and agile - not hulking and and sun-blocking. It wouldn't make sense for a race of pirates to zip around in massive ships that can't make a speedy getaway.

The Imperium has superheavies, in laughable abundance. That's what they do. I think that's the point critics are making when they express objections to Dark Eldar having superheavies - it's not that DE can't have them, just that they wouldn't have them, or they wouldn't have enough of them to include in the army lists.

*** *** *** *** *** ***

I mostly talked about spaceships, but let's talk about ground units:

How many Stormblade superheavy tanks do you think the Imperium has? Now by what factor would just the Stormblades alone completely dwarf a Dark Eldar counterpart? The DE could have massive ground vehicles - but would they?

Would the DE even show up for a fight if Tau were floating Manta's around, or if the Orks had a Gargant stomping about?

[eldargal]

I can't help thinking you didn't read the post, as most of your points are addressed in it.

See this is exactly what I'm talking about, no one is saying the Dark Eldar would have lumbering, clunky machines. But they do have large scale ships that are every bit as fast as their smaller ships. Read the bit where I talk about the problems with the term 'superheavy' please.

The Dark Eldar crippled the Imperium naval base at Bakka, the base for an entire SEGMENTUM ie one quarter of the Imperium (p129 of the BRB). Eldar pirates captured an IG troop ship with five million Guard on board (p127) and the DE codex has them capturing a SM strike cruiser and stripping an entire Tau world of its population.

As to stormblades, how isthat relevent? The Imperium can't deploy them all in one place, they don't know where the Dark Eldar will strike next and the Dark Eldar have been knownto divert Waaghs and tyranid hive fleet tendrils to worlds they want to attack but deem too heavily defended.

[Etra]

Because it's not in their character. The flavor of the race is defined in the hedonism of the individual - this contradicts the concept of thousands if not tens of thousands of DE working in tandem to achieve a goal as abstract as fleet maintenance.

No doubt, the Dark Eldar have committed incredible feats of daring that betray their true strength. That being said, how of this is planning and how much of it is luck?

How easy would it be to cripple an Imperium naval base if you have complete surprise and the weapons to do it with? I can't help but compare that with the Japanese bombing of Pearl Harbor, where it was basically a perfect storm brewing against the Americans.

The same goes with capturing a troop ship, regardless of the number of personnel on board. Hell, with the way the books go about describing how perilous warp travel can be, how it's more luck than science, it sounds like isolating a troop ship from it's escorts would be cake, and taking over the bridge being a simple matter of working up the will to do it. If they don't see you coming... the tabletop game will teach you how vital going first can be.

The same goes for the Agri world. If the Dark Eldar are a predator waiting in shadows, then certainly they're going to do something nasty. But bandying about those accomplishments like those are standard goals the Dark Eldar can achieve at any old time misrepresents the truth - that those were the exceptional acts of an ambush predator against an unsuspecting victim.

I bring up the IG superheavies to make a point of scale: whereas a Dark Eldar showing of force is an occasion, the IG performing the same action (in the lore) is as common as Tuesday. You say the IG would never be able to put all their eggs in one basket, but presume the DE can.

You're right, the IG don't know where the DE will strike. And that uncertainty is the DE's greatest weapon. The DE don't need world-ending starcruisers or earth-churning leviathans when all they've ever needed is the element of surprise.

[eldargal]

Dark Eldar wouldn't be maintaing the fleets, that is what slaves are for. It is slaves who build the things in the first place, no Dark Eldar would be bothered with that sort of thing.

See now you are getting desperate, the Dark Eldar have a history of launching daring attacks against unsuspecting targets, fortified or otherwise, you can't just dismiss it as luck. Of course there is an element of luck, but planning, skill and technological superiority play a big factor.

You also can't just dismiss every major attack against the Imperium by DE as being exceptional, you have no basis to make that judgement. I could equally argue that every mentioned Space Marine victory is the exception. We hear about them because they happen, simple as that. They are illustrative, not exceptional.

And once again, they have ships that dwarf anything we see on the 40k tabletop in BFG, so why do people thinkg some giant slave barge is too much? It is absurd.

Yet again you assume I'm talking about huge starcruisers or superweapons, read the first post. We are talking about large scale raiders and slave barges, not enormous capital ships or cumbersome tanks and titans.

[Etra]

The complex activities involved in fleet maintenance (much less fleet operation) in addition to the enormous resources required (a lot of mouths to feed, and that's just people) make a slave-based operation impractical. It's more than chaining a man to a peg and forcing him to shovel coal, it requires knowledge and training that a standard person wouldn't have. Unless the DE slaves are adepts of the Mechanicus, their ships aren't going anywhere...

...which is why they wouldn't have the massive ships I outlined, or the larger-than-normal ships you desire. What - they're too preoccupied to do the work, but not so preoccupied as to watch slaves toil about their drudgery? Or how a slave will be too dumb to know quite what they're doing, but not so dumb as to bring the house of cards crumbling down? Or sabotage their own prison?

If the Dark Eldar are so vigilant to prevent sabotage, then why don't they just do the work themselves? Similarly, if the slaves are so smart as to run the ship, then why don't they just run it into the ground? It's just impractical for the Dark Eldar to operate as their codex would describe, as it describes it. There are no Dark Eldar engineers or scientists? Yea, that's why the Somali pirates are out there in dinghies - you don't see them sinking Carrier groups because that is beyond their means. Not to say one of them can't blow a hole in the side of the USS Cole.

The Dark Eldar can give the Imperium a bloody nose - never anything more.

The basis of judgement I have in stating the Dark Eldar victories as flukes are as follows:

• The Imperial Guard depicted in their millions holding their ground against the Ork Waaghs and Tyranid Hive Fleets the DE may send at them.
• Space Marines numbering only a sparse few slaughtering hundreds or thousands of times their number. And they keep doing it, day in day out, year in year out, over and over.
• The Constantinus Iconoclasm from the CSM codex (pg 18) is an amazing example of Space Marines burning out and just killing everyone. Have you ever heard of a Dark Eldar who was pushed too far and gave it up?

No. Because the Dark Eldar don't show up for work every day. But the Imperium does. Remember the movie Public Enemies, with Christian Bale and Johnny Depp? Recall the scene where the mob boss tells Depp his operations, how Depp stole ~$75,000 in a bank heist, but how these phones make that money in a day, and they keep making it every day.

That's the Dark Eldar in comparison to the Imperium.

When the Imperium shows up in force, the Dark Eldar step out of the way. There is no account of the DE standing their ground and fighting to the last man if they didn't have to. They don't do that. Instead, they wait for the juggernauts to pass and then strike the rear lines. They'll rack up an impressive K/D ratio and then extoll their own greatness - nevermind that their achievements are only so great because they avoided the real fights.

And if you're going to make the conscious decision to avoid the big fights, then what do you need big guns for?

[DrLove42]

I think any DE SH would be a flier, in the vein of a Manta.

I have four points for this, in favour of DE SH

1) DE Leaders are very emotionally unbalenced. They strike me as the type that would take a personal vendetta seriously. If a Imperial Leader snubbed them they'd want revenge. Now if that planet is heavily occupied they'd need something to break through. DE aren't stupid. They wouldn't attack a large complex with just raiders. They'd bring in the big guns.They could do a Lady Malys in the story and divert a Rok into the formation, or they might view using a lesser race as a cheat and do it themselves

2) The Tantalus. This is a huge vehicle, coming close to the size of a Baneblade. And yet its not "classed" as a Superheavy, just a regular transport. But is proof that bigger vehicles are possible

3) Eldar Superheavies. I'm under the imprssion that a lot of the Craftworld's super heavies were designed, or at least used or imagined before the fall. So it makes sense the DE have the same sort of knowledge. Yes they don't grow things out of Wraithbone, but they do know the designs. Also all the Eldar outcasts who contact both worlds have some slender access to them. And anything can be bought in the Black markets of Commaragh

4) The description of the Phantom Titan in th new IA Apoc book. its describes webway portals being stretched and opened wider when a Phantom is deployed. So it suggests the webways tunnels are not fixed, and can be manipulated to allow larger things through

[eldargal]

I agree, but add to that the possibiliy of giant coven constructs and mabe Wych cult controlled gargantuan creatures.

The webway portals being stretched to accomdate larger vehicles isn't new either, the 3rd ed Codex: Eldar talk about a small webway portal ableto be expanded from 13.5 metres to 40-50 metres though it is speculatiom by an Imperium scientist.

[Valkerie]

Another point in favor of superheavies is that it would be an enormous status symbol. 'Look how rich and powerful I am, I can afford a superheavy.' Granted, they might not use them very often, not wanting to risk that big an investment, but I imagine that any Kabal or Coven that is or wants to be taken as a major power would have a few around. In fact, it might be seen as proof that you've reached the big leagues.

[Etra]

I wrote a great response to Eldargal and it said a moderator had to approve it first. It's been two days and my post hasn't appeared - what's the story with that?