Why the Dark Eldar can build and deploy 'superheavies'.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Commoragh's a pretty huge place, lots of resources etc., and plenty of madmen in control of it all - big murder-machines are kind of a given!

Gameplay-wise, most of the Eldar super-heavies would probably work out for them - it's pretty easy to argue that the Eldar flyers/titans are pre-fall designs (plus, a Dark Eldar Phantom would look awesome).

That and Tyranid Super-heavies/Squiggoths to represent the greatest exploits of the Haemonculi and Beastmasters.

[eldargal]

Well, Craftworld Eldar vehicles are made of wraithbone so they wouldn't work too well, and the implication from the DE codex is their vehicles are closer to pre-fall vehicles.

[GrenAcid]

@up
TBH I dont have more to say other than: "You are right!"

I wrote a great response to Eldargal and it said a moderator had to approve it first. It's been two days and my post hasn't appeared - what's the story with that?

Maybe cuz its rubbish?

[eldargal]

One thing to remember is that pre-Fall the Eldar were so advanced that as far as we know they didn't need a conventional military. Why bother when if a race attacks you you can turn their suns on and off like lightbulbs? After the fall the DE began convrting pleasure yachts and whatnot into Raiders and Ravagers to help them raid for souls and the Craftworld began either designing new vehicles to fit with their Path system or refitting existing vehicles as well, we don't know. But given that the raider is explicitly stated to be 'like the gliding pleasure boats of the ancient Eldar' and as far as I recall no Craftworld are given a history like that, I think it is safe to assume that the Craftworld vehicles were relatively new designs or post-Fall designs.

[Freefall945]

I'm largely with Eldargal on this one. Notable points for and against that I have gleaned from your posts:



Against Dark Eldar Super Heavies:

a) The webway portal debarcle, or the “Super Heavy Ship in a Bottle”.

b) The comparitive -rarity- of such vehicles making them a non-issue for table-top affairs.

c) The 'minor' threat of the Dark Eldar meaning a tactical prohibition on such items.


For Dark Eldar Super Heavies:

a) Jes Goodwyn, and by extension Games Workshop, says “Why not?”

b) Ancestral Connection to the Eldar, who -do- deploy super heavies.

c) A lack of cogent points in the previous category to prohibit such things.

Expanded in turn...

Against:

a) Webway Access, Ship in a Bottle:

Eldargal has threshed this point sufficiently well to require little extra clarity. There is only one thing that fluff deems as “too large” to go through the webway in optimal conditions, and that is a Craftworld. The Eldar rely on keeping their Craftworld's exact locales obscure and undesirable to protect them (also deadly eldar to protect them. >.>) As far as we can tell, things Craftworld and up can not be Web-wayed. That's all. Large vehicles should pretty much be a cinch.

b) Comparitive Rarity, Exception Not the Rule.

Well, we're not really told how many Dark Eldar there are. We expect them to be “few” compared to Orks or Humans but we have no right to fix numbers where there are no blanks provided. In 3rd/4th Ed, it seemed the “harassing pirate” angle was played up more than it is presently when the designers of the present codex rightly decided “why would anyone want to play a race in the 41st millenium that can not have any measurable impact on events?” and broadened the fluff to include the jaw-dropping daring as referenced by Eldargal up there. Dark Eldar, and by extension and weapons they have to offer, are great enough in quantity to be considered a galactic menace, not a piracy foot-note.

As a side note, any credibility to the Rarity argument was washed away by psycannon rounds recently enough. The fact that there are, like, a thousand grey knights, constituting a tiny blip in a very specialized arena of the Imperial juggernaught, was important to keep in mind back in Codex: Daemonhunters. Now, the Games Workshop fluff-dispensers give us a much more laid back “Meh” when broached with that suggestion, leading to the understanding that the rarity of something in the vast scale of the 41st millennium should not prevent you from having fun by playing it. Ultimately, vast universe, laughter of thirsting gods, you will not be missed et al applies to all of us.

c) The Minor Threat, Light Skimmers or Bust.

Related to the previous point, the idea that the Dark Eldar represent a small threat which could not benefit tactically from having super-heavies because of its hit-and-run existence also falters at point of numbers, and the codex transition.

What is prohibited by Dark Eldar tactics, specifically, is-tanks- which are not the same as Super-heavies. Eldar Tanks are expected to be both hit-and-run vehicles, and to be able to withstand moderate punishment in a protracted engagement. Dark Eldar do not enter protracted engagements. There is nothing on this side of the Webway they would want to protect so dearly that they would risk their lives for it in a vehicle that was designed with the expectation of -actually being hit-. Dark Eldar tactics do not suggest, “do not fly around in large vehicles”, but rather “do not get hit, we are not good at it”.

All this means is that a Dark Eldar superheavy would be designed with the philosophy of untouchability in mind. The question becomes... Is that possible?

For:

a) Why Not?

Why not indeed, Jes? Anyone with even an ounce of creativity can imagine a Dark Eldar vehicle the size of a super-heavy which is not just a fat, armour-plated blade-tank. The fact that...

b) Eldar Super-heavies...

...exist suggests capability to operate in the super-heavy medium, but it would be important that they were specifically Dark Eldar, and not just Dark Scorpions or Dark Phantom Titans.

c) The lack of cogent arguments...

Is a fancy way of saying “Why not?” again.


I must stress again that an acceptable offering of a Dark Eldar super-heavy would have to be something special. Dark Eldar suffer from an aesthetic overlap – they are sleek and alien like the Craftworld Eldar, but dangerous and evil to behold, like Chaos.

The prevalence of blades in their silhouette combats both these things. It mark them as different from the Eldar by their -violence- and cruelty, but separates them from Chaos more implicitly.

The Chaos silhouettes feature spikes, not blades, and while this may seem like a superficial difference, the truth is the difference can not be overstated.

Spikes suggest thuggery. Brutality. They suggest a slamming, gut-peircing impact. Incidental trauma. Bodies speared on the spikes jutting from a chaos Rhino and left to hang there, just because they got in the way. Ruthlessness. Fiendish indifference to suffering. Collateral damage.

Blades, by contrast, suggest wickedness. Sadism. They imply rapid, non-fatal strikes. Deliberate laceration. Warriors sliced and ruined long before they are executed – if at all. Intention. Malevolent investment in suffering. Murder.

A spike is rammed into the target over and over with the greatest force for maximum damage. A blade requires movement, calculated precision, and patience.


Huh. Sorry if that got a little -weird- there. My mind kind of ran away with me.

[DrLove42]

Nicely expanded argument

I make my point agaisnt your "rarity" point though. The Phantom Titan is rare. The wraithseer, according to its fluff, has only a few working and are mostly lost and buried. The Phoneix lords only turn up for the largest of battles.

The DE are actually very numerous. Between slaves, cloned warriors and the fact that the Hemonculus can almost prevent perma-death they have very large numbers.

And yes on the imperium point - theres only 20-30 Purifiers in the entire galaxy and yet they always all seem to turn up for little battles



And as for untouchable non-tanks approach. I imagine DE superheavies would be Superheavy Fliers.

[lattd]

I would see Dark Eldar super heavies as either fighter/bombers, a barge with a super shadowfield or whatever bits Urien and his pals decided to chuck together and give life, sorta like a hell pit abomination from scaven with more guns and more anger.

[eldargal]

Yep, rarity isn't a problem, otherwise we wouldn't have SCs who are more than rare, being unique. Infact the codex also has a unique vehicle, the Dias of Destruction.

Personally I see two likely types of DE superheavy and one less likely:

Large fliers.
Coven constructs.
Large wych cult beasts. <--less likely but plausible, we know they like to capture big critters.

Nothing with legs, not even coven constructs, the talos and cronos float afterall.

[DrLove42]

Nothing with legs, not even coven constructs, the talos and cronos float afterall.

Super Grotesque! The result of 100 space marines sown together!

And not in a human-centipede kinda way

[eldargal]

Personally I think anything larger than a talos should float like a talos.

Some examples I threw together, obviously I'm not advocating these exactly as is some bits may be over/underpowered and I've no idea what appropriate costs would be, but they are just examples of what I envisage for them:


'large raider'
AV 12/12/10, Supersonic, Flyer, Hover, Open Topped.
2 Structure points
3 Heavy 3 Dark Lances
Transport Capacity 24.

Raider upgrades with appropriate costs.

'slave barge'
AV 12/12/10, Supersonic, Flyer, Hover.
3 Structure points
6 Splinter Cannons
Transport Capacity 30

Special ability:
Slave run: One enemy unit passed over by the slave barge in its movement phase suffers 2D6 S7 AP4 attacks.

Special equipment: Grapples: Allows two units to be targetted with slave run.

Raider options with appropriate costs.

etc.