Ward- Necrons are an 'elite shooty army' +fluff

[Deadlift]

If the Necrons as described by Mr Ward are "the elite shooty army" what direction will the Tau codex take ? I know IG, SW and BA can all bring some tasty shooting to the table, but it's not their only trick. I always thought Tau were the race to be beaten in the long-range warfare game. Could be it's now Necrons ?
So what will Tau bring that's different ?

[Maelstorm]

No worries about the Tau's fate, this is a Necron thread. :-)

[Necron_Lord]

Speaking for myself (and maybe Maelstorm?), that's why I say I need to see the codex, and then do a price/effectiveness comparison against other recent codices, such as DE. If I find that my current army (at the new adjusted costs) facing off against a comparable current army is repeatedly and soundly mud-stomped ... yeah, I'll be pissed. Nobody wants to see their investment over several years be completely erased at someone's whim.

Lastly, and most importantly, playability ... who here enjoys watching their army get slaughtered before it can even do anything? Who here enjoys watching their units repetitively get caught in a sweeping advance? If that is an army's lot, why would you ever play such a thing? I don't know about you, but I play to have fun. I do not give one rat's bleeding red bunghole about GW's financial future, or even its survival. I owe them nothing. If I cannot enjoy the game, I'm not going to play it. If a given unit in a Codex can only offer me relentless frustration, I'm not going to buy the models. Simple.

But again, I stress, I have to see the Codex first. That will be the deciding factor for me.

I felt the same way when 5e came around. I had invested quite a bit of money in an army whose whole mechanics got hosed by 5e rule changes. The last couple years I have had to do a lot of Destroyer spam and sometimes dual Monolith to survive against the lists I was going up against and the options at each slot were really slim. Elites? Immortals were the only unit worth a damn. Troops? I could only take Warriors. Fast Attack was the only slot where one had a choice as all three were viable. Wraiths would more often than not lose out because they only had 3 W as a unit and were only 9 points cheaper than a Destroyer. When one has to make lots of saves it is only too easy to roll 3+ '1's and '2's.

Bottom line this codex looks a lot better than the old one if only because phase out is gone, so I really don't understand the pessimism from you and Maelstrom. If he has 14,000 points, he should have no problem fielding Immortals as Troops. Supposedly there will be weapons options for Wraiths and Tomb Spyders which might require some converting, but that supposedly is where the I 2 weakness is addressed as there is supposedly something like 'lash whips' one can get. Regarding Flayed Ones they weren't so hot before and have worse stats now, but they will be cheaper. I think they will be like Mandrakes, an OK harassment unit for some armies which just won't find its way on competitive lists.

I think that this codex will be decent but won't curb stomp any of the top tier codices. It will probably play differently than the old one so everyone will have to learn the new codex and its potential. When the codex is understood, I think people will only get continually curb stomped if they are poor players. I don't get a bad vibe about this codex at all. There might be some fail units (lots of armies have one or a couple of them) but overall I think it will be interesting and an improvement. I will have to read the codex to be certain, but I think this will be nowhere as bad as the Tyranids codex.

[Maelstorm]

Please excuise me while I set up my soap box:

By reducing the unit size of a Destroyer squad from 5 to 3 and reducing the number of shots per model from 3 to 2 a squad of destroyers now have 6 shots instead of 15, and are VERY easily wiped-out with only 3 wounds for the whole 120 point squad. Quite a shame when I have 15 Destroyers and 9 Heavy Destgroyers sitting on the shelf. Fail.

Deep Striking Flayed Ones with 4+ armour (Scout armour), no power weapons and an initiative of 2 as an elite close combat unit? WTF? Fail. Can't wait to assault those pesky longfangs, only to get wiped-out first before a single attack is made.

Army-wide Initiative of 2? WTF?? Fail Bonus! Can't wait to get mudstomped and swept in Close Combat by... everything in the game! Woohoo!

Once again we're back to ranged keep-away to make the army playable. Only buying a parking-lot full of the new $35-$55 mech will make them usefull. Mech-spam for Necrons - Hurrah! Might as well go back to playing lazy flip-a-switch Mech spam with any Imperial/Marine army.

The only thing I look forward to so far in the Codex? Rolling 30 Scarabs out onto the table instead of 15 Destroyers. Oops wait, more Initiative 2 and Close Combat for Necrons... Fail

What he meant by "Elite shooty army" was "they will suck wind at close combat and have a couple of special ranged weapons - that will be improved upon and written into the next Marine codex".

I'll put the soap box away, for now.

[Kawauso]

That's one way of looking at it.

From what we know of the codex, to me it looks like Necrons have to soften targets up with shooting before committing to an assault.

Flayed Ones don't look like an elite combat unit, and I'm not sure they're trying to be portrayed as such. And Deep Strike won't be a good option for them most of the time - when's the last time you've seen a non-BA army Deep Strike a unit of Assault Marines? It's nice that the option is there, but most of the time it's better not to. Just like most of the time I imagine it will be better to infiltrate or outflank Flayed Ones.

A unit of 10 of them will run at 130 points. That's 60 points cheaper than a 10-man Assault Marine unit already. That's only a little more than most 5-man marine units cost. So let's say you've whittled a unit down to 6 from shooting, or it's a small unit to begin with like Long Fangs. Let's say you use infiltrate/outflank to the best of your ability, and cover, etc. to get into combat with said unit. There are a lot of variables that are being discounted here, but we have to be simple for the sake of example. 10 Flayed Ones charge 6 marines. Let's say the marine unit has a hidden power fist, because marines like that. So 5 marines go first. 2.5 hits...we'll round that up to 3. 1.5 wounds...we'll round that up to 2. Which is pretty generous in this case. 1 Necron goes down (50% armour save odds on 2 wounds). Then the 9 Flayed Ones attack. 36 attacks. 18 hits. 9 wounds. 3 marines down. The sergeant goes. 1 hit. Likely 1 wound, killing another Necron. The Flayed Ones have won the combat. Not by a lot, mind you, but they've won. They have a chance of doing some more No Retreat wounds to the marines. They will likely grind down the marines over the next turn or two of combat. By not winning the combat in a landslide off the charge, they get to avoid a turn of being shot at after they consolidate.

Those are the sort of combats you'll be wanting to get Flayed Ones into. They're not an elite CC unit - don't throw them at assault terminators or the like.

Necrons aren't going to faceroll people in close combat - has the army ever really been about doing that to begin with? Their shooting has always been where the army shines (outside of their durability, that is). That...hasn't really changed, from the look of the new codex. How we'll go about shooting (and assaulting softened targets) will have changed, surely. This is what happens when a codex gets updated. Tactics change. Were you hoping for an army update that was just more of the same?

I agree that it sucks that Destroyer squads are smaller now...
I know my buddy who plays GK wasn't happy when halberds and swords became actual different pieces of wargear when GK got updated. It sucked that he had to change his models to reflect WYSIWYG.
There are growing pains that come with every update...it's not a perfect system. GW is far from perfect. And of course they are going to push you to buy new models...

I guess I'm just baffled that you're so indignant about this change. What did you think was going to happen when Necrons finally got an update, exactly?

Ah well...have fun with your soapbox.

I'll have fun checking out the new book when it drops - and I'm pretty confident I'll have fun playing with my 'crons again, too! Even though I'll have to buy a few new units (well, I won't -have- to...I just want some of those new shiny things, damnit)! :P

[Shas'O Bentu']

The issue I have with Flayed Ones isn't so much their ability in close combat, it is the competition they are up against vs. the rest of the force. A necron warrior is the same cost as a flayed one with the same stat line. I don't see the point in taking a CC unit that isn't great (decent though) at close combat that can not score over a unit that can shoot from relative safety that can score. When it comes down to it, having a spare 130 points means I am taking another unit of 10 warriors.

The issue with Destroyers is nearly the same but they are in competition vs the other FA choices as well as total army points. The first thing I will want to do is put one unit of Heavy Destroyers in for mobile anti tank then I want my second choice to be Scarabs. Now I am contending them vs the rest of my army points. Is a 3 man unit of destroyers really worth it. The old Destroyers at 5 models vs the new Destroyers at 3 models have the same kill ratio vs MEQ in the open at a lower point cost. Comparing the 2 against non-MEQ, the old destroyers win out hands down. Plus, you have to add in the fact that the cover saves are currently extremely generous and you won't always get the MEQ in the open. I find it again hard for them to have a place in my force. Granted, this is my opinion and may not be the same way someone else views it.

I am not going to go on a soap box and say these options suck and we need to string up Ward for making it this way as I can see some players using those units and finding good and interesting tactics with them. Me, personally, I will have to toy around with the Codex a bit when it comes out before I go onto a full on Nerd Rage.

[Ghost of War]

Please excuise me while I set up my soap box:

By reducing the unit size of a Destroyer squad from 5 to 3 and reducing the number of shots per model from 3 to 2 a squad of destroyers now have 6 shots instead of 15, and are VERY easily wiped-out with only 3 wounds for the whole 120 point squad. Quite a shame when I have 15 Destroyers and 9 Heavy Destgroyers sitting on the shelf. Fail.

Deep Striking Flayed Ones with 4+ armour (Scout armour), no power weapons and an initiative of 2 as an elite close combat unit? WTF? Fail. Can't wait to assault those pesky longfangs, only to get wiped-out first before a single attack is made.

Army-wide Initiative of 2? WTF?? Fail Bonus! Can't wait to get mudstomped and swept in Close Combat by... everything in the game! Woohoo!

Once again we're back to ranged keep-away to make the army playable. Only buying a parking-lot full of the new $35-$55 mech will make them usefull. Mech-spam for Necrons - Hurrah! Might as well go back to playing lazy flip-a-switch Mech spam with any Imperial/Marine army.

The only thing I look forward to so far in the Codex? Rolling 30 Scarabs out onto the table instead of 15 Destroyers. Oops wait, more Initiative 2 and Close Combat for Necrons... Fail

What he meant by "Elite shooty army" was "they will suck wind at close combat and have a couple of special ranged weapons - that will be improved upon and written into the next Marine codex".

I'll put the soap box away, for now.

Jeez man - THE BOOK ISNT EVEN OUT - Sell your Sh!t already.

I collect crons as well and I am standoffish as well. But the new models look cool, and I love to paint - so I am fine. The i2 thing is bullcrap though.. not sure why there even assault elements in the army if they blanketed them all with that.

On the bright side Maelstorm - If you find that some of your stuff is no longer to your liking. The web will be crawling with badwagoners who will want your used models. Then you can take some of that cash and grab a couple new toys and it should be a non spend.

I understand your mad - but ranting about a book that isnt even in your hands yet isnt going to do any good. It's wasted energy. Everyone needs to vent - but you did that(several times), and you did it without the codex in hand.

Just breath man.

[Deadlift]

I could be wrong but aren't the Crypteks / Lords able to join units and take wargear that will buff the units their in. We may find that there will be the option to boost I2 etc.

[Malachi]

I could be wrong but aren't the Crypteks / Lords able to join units and take wargear that will buff the units their in. We may find that there will be the option to boost I2 etc.

Indeed. Didn't we also read that Crypteks can take Res Orbs to boost the unit's "Reanimation Roll" to 4+? Now you have a unit that has an equivalent to FNP that works all the time. Here's something else many people seemed to have missed. Doesn't it say you make the "Reanimation Roll" at the end of every Phase?

That means that those Marines will shoot their Pistols and other Assault weapons, kill some Necrons, then half of them get back up before the Assault phase.

They're also Ld 10 across the board, so getting them to fail a Morale test from combat will be tougher. I think Necron players should start thinking about their CC units not as "charge forward assault" type units but more as counter-assault type units.

However, the bottom line is, yes: things that worked in the old Codex will not work the same/as well as in the new one. This has been pretty consistent for all new Codexes.

[Deadlift]

And with 7 named HQ of which we have seen 2 so far, who knows what sparkly goodness they may bring to the party.