An important message from Her Majasty Queen Elizebeth

[DarkLink]

Our little empire was probably the biggest the world has ever seen

Second largest, actually. The Ottoman empire was bigger. And today it isn't about lands owned, but influence over foreign countries, making it effectively impossible to measure the size and extend of, say, the USSR's influence in the 60's or America's influence now. Besides, my point was you had your empire, and you messed it all up. You don't get to talk trash after that.

and the war of independence as you like to call it was all about rich americans getting richer

As opposed to rich brits getting richer? At least we pretend to have a morally sound basis for our system of government. While modern democracy in developed countries has yet to achieve broad social equality (though I will point out that even amongst the poor, standards of living are impressively high), any monarchy is inherently based on forced, irrevocable social and economic inequality.

Also wtf has lincoln on a bear got to do with owt? considering he's the best part of a hundred years after your petty rebellion?

Do I really have to explain it, or are you really taking this thread that seriously? If you don't get why a funny picture is in a thread involving two semi-rival countries talking trash about each other, then you're taking this way, way to seriously.

Just for clarification, the only truly serious statement I've made so far is that any and all monarchies are inherently immoral. If I were to meet your queen right now, I would treat her no differently than any other random old rich lady that I might have happened to meet, and she had better not expect otherwise. Respect is something to be earned, not inherited.

[eldargal]

Quite wrong, Mr DarkLink, the British Empire contained around a quarter of the worlds landmass and a fifth of the worlds population at its peak (which lasted over a century). Vastly more than any of the other post-gunpowder empires, and considerably more than the Ottoman Empire which only had around four percent of the worlds population and under 10% of its landmass.

The Pax Britannia also lasted 99 years, 1815-1914, whereas the Pax Americana lasted ten, 1991-2001. The US is also no longer the only superpower, since 2005 or so we live in a Great Power system once more where no one or two powers have more power than all the others put together. Not to mention that Britain was still the dominant power until 1940 or so, even after the cripping losses of the Great War. When it comes to influence, Britains in the nineteenth century was even more pervasive than Americas today or even fifty years ago. One of the reasons the American elite have fostered a dislike of France amongst the peasantry in recent decades is due to the fact France refused to kowtow to the USA during the Cold War period.

As for influence, Britain started from a base of direct control over 20% of the worlds population, then factor in influence and it was most definitely greater than that of the USA. Britain had client states accross the globe and even the other great powers clamoured for its approval.

The USA was about republicanism initially, not democracy. Britain has been a democracy since Britain was formed in 1707. The voter base was larger in the early USA but still limited to propertied white males. If you take democracy in the modern sense of universal suffrage then neither of our systems were democratic until the '20s.

The irony of your comment about monarchies is that the USA system is an elected monarchy and your President has vastly more power than any British Monarch has had since George III. In fact if you look at the top twenty or so countries in the world ranked by the least corruption and most political freedoms, consitutional monarchies top the list and dominate despite being few in number.

I'm not sure what on earth you are trying to say about competing with France, France has the most illustrious military history of every nation and dominated the Old World for over three centuries. They are also solely responsible for you winning youri ndependence from Britain, had the French fleet not blockaded the British in the Americas and threatened invasion of Britain at home the little rebellion would have failed miserably. Not to mention the money, arms, training etc France provided. The same situation in 1812-14, if Napoleon hadn't been ravaging Europe Britain could easily have won the War of 1812.

I'm British and have every right to hold the French up to ridicule, but even I think it is disgraceful at how obnoxious Americans behave towards the country which twice ensured their own freedom. If you want to take that attitude, I'm sure the French would appreciate that statue back they gave you to symbolise a century of friendship and respect. Cost them quite a bit, I hear.

Don't think I'm downplaying the importance or power of America in the 20th century, though. God knows how much more damage communism would have done had America not taken such a strong stance against it (putting it mildly). Even if you did get a bit carried away at times (*cough* Viet Nam *uncough*). This isn't about whose state or form of governance is best, I wouldn't expect Americans to prefer constitutional Monarchy, but rather a historical perspective on the Empires.

[DarkLink]

Hey, don't blame me for what the first result on google said about the largest empire in history. Told you I wasn't being very serious.

The issue with monarchies isn't one of practicality, it's about the moral system upon which they're based. The fundamental ideal that certain individuals are better than others based on nothing more than their lineage is untenable. Leadership philosophies such as nobless oblige and the like are quite admirable within a political context and can be absent from a system where politicians care more about reelection than duty, but from a moral standpoint I cannot condone support of a monarchy as a general political philosophy.

[eldargal]

I can understand your view, though I don't agree. The Sovereign is not superior to her subjects, she is merely their representative in lifelong service to them. In return they get the ultimate golden cage, considerable comfort (not as luxurious as people think, though) for themselves and their family. Don't underestimate the benefits of having a head of state who has almost literally been bred with a sense of duty to her subjects. The respect given to a sovereign isn't given out of some feudal sense of inferiority, rather respect for the physical embodiment of the state, and is really isn't that different to the way Americans treat the president (so long as they voted for them. We don't have that problem of course, so less division right there).

The whole thing about Sovereigns being superior went out with Divine Right in the 17th century in Britain. Perversely this apparent undemocratic element makes the system more democratic as the Sovereign is the source of all authority and power within the state but cannot wield it herself. To quote Winston Churchill, the Cronw is notable not for the power it wields but the power it denies others.

I personally find the idea that authority rests in a popularity contest to be repulsive and ammoral (not immoral), not to mention naive and ineffectual.

Of course, the irony of this is if Kron Prinz Friedrich hadn't been such a slow corrospondent you would have been a monarchy anyway.

I'm not trying to change your mind, or anyone elses mind, as I said previously I wouldn't expect Americans to appreciate Monarchy as it isn't part of your cultural tradition.

[Verilance]

as Eldergal points out I would much rather have a Monarch who while technically holds power but by tradition cannot wield it, than a President who must justify his or her position by interfering in the peoples' business.

[Denzark]

Its a bit early for this sort of thing, isn't it? Humourous piece, worth a chuckle - the laffs get slightly better if the colonials bite.

Personally, if a senior member of House Windsor issued orders to dissolve parliament in order to rule by decree, and that decree would include pulling out of the EU and restoring the death penalty*, I would march into westminster with a bayonet on my rifle, a prayer in my heart and a song on my lips.



* I believe that keeping child rapists and murderers alive at the cost of £60+k per annum is a waste of time - treat them as you would a mad dog and put them down humanely.

[Aldramelech]

Its a bit early for this sort of thing, isn't it? Humourous piece, worth a chuckle - the laffs get slightly better if the colonials bite.

Personally, if a senior member of House Windsor issued orders to dissolve parliament in order to rule by decree, and that decree would include pulling out of the EU and restoring the death penalty*, I would march into westminster with a bayonet on my rifle, a prayer in my heart and a song on my lips.



* I believe that keeping child rapists and murderers alive at the cost of £60+k per annum is a waste of time - treat them as you would a mad dog and put them down humanely.

Should have added a bit about "having a sense of humour"

Brass Scorpian you really are the biggest twonk on this forum arn't you?

[Hive Mind]

Why are the British so obsessed with looking backwards? Oh yeah, it's because we used to be relevant.

The really mind-boggling bit of it all is the Little Englanders who can't see that the E.U is the greatest thing to happen to Britain since the NHS. You'd think they'd recognise that it's our only opportunity for even slight relevance (that doesn't involve hanging off the U.S's proverbial nuts) but no, they're far too small-minded.

Seven months and twenty-nine days until I can flee this cess-pit and it's inhabitants for ever, thank the FSM.

[eldargal]

The problem is the EU has its own serious problems which could have been avoided had Britain been allowed to have a more central role even back when it was the EEC. People forget that we once wanted a bigger role and de Gaulle did his best to shut us out. The result was growing Euroscepticism which is seemingly being validated by the financial situation now. We were effectively shut out of the cool kids club and reacted against that sentiment (the populace, not the guvmint) by becoming increasingly cynical about it.

Though I'm not sure why you would think the 7th largest economy in the world would only have 'slight' relevence without the EU. The EU isn't the only option, either, the Commonwealth could be transformed into a similar economic bloc with some effort, an idea India is amenable to in order to help balance Chinas influence.

I used to be extremely pro-EU, now I'm not, largely because of supremely idiotic decisions like letting Greece and other second tier economies adopt the Euro. That didn't work out too well, but criticisms at the time were written off as snobbery and Euroscepticism.

Let's not turn this into a EU debate thread, though.

[Aldramelech]

The problem is the EU has its own serious problems which could have been avoided had Britain been allowed to have a more central role even back when it was the EEC. People forget that we once wanted a bigger role and de Gaulle did his best to shut us out. The result was growing Euroscepticism which is seemingly being validated by the financial situation now. We were effectively shut out of the cool kids club and reacted against that sentiment (the populace, not the guvmint) by becoming increasingly cynical about it.

Though I'm not sure why you would think the 7th largest economy in the world would only have 'slight' relevence without the EU. The EU isn't the only option, either, the Commonwealth could be transformed into a similar economic bloc with some effort, an idea India is amenable to in order to help balance Chinas influence.

I used to be extremely pro-EU, now I'm not, largely because of supremely idiotic decisions like letting Greece and other second tier economies adopt the Euro. That didn't work out too well, but criticisms at the time were written off as snobbery and Euroscepticism.

Let's not turn this into a EU debate thread, though.

Lets not turn it into any kind of debate

IT WAS A PIECE OF TONGUE IN CHEEK HUMOUR FOR GODS SAKE

Hivemind, dont let the door hit your *** on the way out!