BoLS Readers Choice Awards 2011 - Rulebook/Army Book

[Zweischneid]

You really think this was the reasoning behind GW's writting on the book? And you can't say "spamming one thing in my army cos its cheap and fits the fluff is fine, but spamming something else in another army that also fits the fluff is a bad thing!"

The difference with Dark Eldar is, there is no variety. You can disparage anything and everything as "spam", but a Draigo/Paladin list plays distinctively different to a Henchmen list, which plays distinctively different to a Stormraven list, which plays distinctively different to a Purifier-list, etc.. . There is room for marketedly different play-styles that, yes, can be taken to extremes or, yes, can be combined in hybrid lists.

DE fails in that because the basic concept never changes. Whatever you load into the Venoms/Raiders, it relies on overwhelming the opponent with target-saturation and speed as/after you demech them with (mostly) Ravagers (from possibly the worst internal balance for HS in any 40K Codex save Long Fangs).
It's a one-trick pony whichever way you spin it. Variety in DE is "you can have any colour as long as its black". Thus.. spam.

And in relation to the latter, it should be noted that DE are not described as Horde-army. They are described as manipulative and of using advanced mobility and dark technology to gain supremacy. That is utterly lost as they essentially outnumber (in units, if not in models) pretty much any other army out there and simply win by overwhelming. The list in DE utterly fails to capture the nature of the army in fluff and background. The only other Codex that fails in similar ways is Space Wolves, where Long Fangs and JoTWW turned "into-the-teeth-of-the-enemy-heroes" (fluff) into a "sit-back, relax, character-sniping & gunlines"-army (gameplay)

Thus, Dark Eldar and Space Wolves are by and large at the bottom of 5th Edition books. Neither comes close to the quality of Grey Knights (or most other 5th Edition Codexes).



[edit]


Also, the Grey Knight fluff is top-notch. I am not sure what your problem is, but the book took one of the most dull, thematically convoluted and pretentious older books and revived them with a strong, unique theme, great grimdark stories, iconic characters and fantastic tie-ins to both the popular HH-novels and other Codexes (incl. the latter-coming Necrons).

In all of these it is far superiour to, among others, the DE Codex with languishes without strong interconnection with the other fluff, suffers from n extremely boring, list-less and expositonary writing style (e.g. "Vect is the most intelligent DE" , "DE are the most depraved race".. screw that.. don't tell me, SHOW ME you moron of a writer) and some of the most hare-brained naming ever seen (Decapitator-wielding Decapitator decapitating people?). The stories included grate with 40K sensibilities by catering more to a loony-toon-bugs-bunny aesthetic than a 40K one (e.g. "black-holes in a box") and seem to seep too much with the writer's own unresolved childhood issue (poor Vect became "evil" because he wasn't taken serious as a child? Cry me a river).

[DrLove42]

The difference with Dark Eldar is, there is no variety. You can disparage anything and everything as "spam", but a Draigo/Paladin list plays distinctively different to a Henchmen list, which plays distinctively different to a Stormraven list, which plays distinctively different to a Purifier-list, etc.. . There is room for marketedly different play-styles that, yes, can be taken to extremes or, yes, can be combined in hybrid lists.

Baron List with Hellions. Venom Spam. Wych Cults w/ Raiders. Wych Cults w/WWP. Hemonculus constructs. Raider Heavy List. Aircraft vs Ravagers. All different, all solid builds. Shooty or Combatty? Fast or Slow?

The 5 guys in venom with a blaster x 6 is just one internet list. In my 2000 point DE list I run 2 venoms.

They are radically different books and radically different playstyles. GK get to sit back and go "who cares if our player is sh**, T4 with 2/3+ and armour 12 vehicles? We don't care if we get left out in the open". DE are a master army with a need to be precise and good as one mistake can cost everything

DE fails in that because the basic concept never changes. Whatever you load into the Venoms/Raiders, it relies on overwhelming the opponent with target-saturation and speed as/after you demech them with (mostly) Ravagers (from possibly the worst internal balance for HS in any 40K Codex save Long Fangs).

As opposed to GK concept of "Pyscannon/Dreadnaught everything to death. Then assault" Again it comes down to play style. You can play GK as you would dark eldar. You can't play DE as you would GK. Name an army that doesn't just play as "demech then kill" these days.

Also Ravagers wouldn't be as used if the Fliers had kits. (i know one does, which is why you see a lot of them now). And the GK heavy is so balenced in 99% of lists. "Dreadnaught, Autocannon x 2, Psybolt. "Dreadnaught, Autocannon x 2, Psybolt. "Dreadnaught, Autocannon x 2, Psybolt."

And in relation to the latter, it should be noted that DE are not described as Horde-army. They are described as manipulative and of using advanced mobility and dark technology to gain supremacy. That is utterly lost as they essentially outnumber (in units, if not in models) pretty much any other army out there and simply win by overwhelming. The list in DE utterly fails to capture the nature of the army in fluff and background.

NeitherI, nor the DE book ever mentioned Horde army. The only reason they sometimes outnumber other more hordey armies is cos noone plays horde armies in those armies that are supposed to be (Orks are no longer horde...they're mechs and bikes, Nids are rarely hordey any more, Guard aren't massed troops anymore, they're parking lots and aircraft)

DE aren't desribed as a horde. They're described as a large fleet made of lots of fast vehicles, with passengers on them.

And again GK can't sit back on their fluff justifiying their army. No army can these days.

GK lists take 30 odd Purifiers. The fact the fluff says theres only 40 odd of them in existance begs the question why they're all on the field at once. Draigo is the ultimate GK, and is locked in the warp, and only turns up in truely dire conditins when deamons open the warp up and he can get out. So how does he turn up in a combat patrol mission against the Tau?

Also, the Grey Knight fluff is top-notch. I am not sure what your problem is, but the book took one of the most dull, thematically convoluted and pretentious older books and revived them with a strong, unique theme, great grimdark stories, iconic characters and fantastic tie-ins to both the popular HH-novels and other Codexes (incl. the latter-coming Necrons).

Draigos fluff is an abomination, just satisfying Matt Wards (who I normally have no problem with as a writer) hard on for "mahreens must be teh best at everything!"
As is the GK sacrificing the sisters story. It sets them as being WAAC, and paints them sufficiently as physcopaths, but is just poor writing.

Also its VERY easy to tie a Marine codex into the HH series....they are after all written entirely about marines.

The books featuring DE can be counted on one hand, even if you've suffered a tragic accident and lost some fingers. So it'd be very hard to tie them in.

In all of these it is far superiour to, among others, the DE Codex with languishes without strong interconnection with the other fluff, suffers from n extremely boring, list-less and expositonary writing style

Again...its hard to interconnect fluff when you've never really been mentioned before because you were a largely ignored army

(e.g. "Vect is the most intelligent DE" , "DE are the most depraved race".. screw that.. don't tell me, SHOW ME you moron of a writer) and some of the most hare-brained naming ever seen (Decapitator-wielding Decapitator decapitating people?).

As opposed to "GK are teh best!" and "GK sacrifice everything to do what needs be done!" that just runs through the whole book.

And how can you say the rise of Vect story, the timeline section AND the other fluff in the book doesn't back up the points made. Have you even read the fluff at the beginning of the book?

The stories included grate with 40K sensibilities by catering more to a loony-toon-bugs-bunny aesthetic than a 40K one (e.g. "black-holes in a box")

Again, as opposed to GK battling demons (very realistic there), or boxes that can suck people into dimensional prisons? Or that when the GK's were founded they moved the entire planetoid into a different dimension to hide it? And i still can't fathom that you think a micro black hole trap is bugs bunny story telling, but one man wandering across the warp turning up when he can, or a guy who has physic ghosts following him is good stroytelling

You forget, the DE have existed in their current form since before mankind even left Terra. They existed as a even more dominant power significantly longer than that. Their lowest technology makes humans greatest achievements look like a spitball gun.

and seem to seep too much with the writer's own unresolved childhood issue (poor Vect became "evil" because he wasn't taken serious as a child? Cry me a river).

Not sure where you're getting that from, sounds like you might be deflecting a little bit there

[Zweischneid]

Baron List with Hellions. Venom Spam. Wych Cults w/ Raiders. Wych Cults w/WWP. Hemonculus constructs. Raider Heavy List. Aircraft vs Ravagers. All different, all solid builds. Shooty or Combatty? Fast or Slow?

The 5 guys in venom with a blaster x 6 is just one internet list. In my 2000 point DE list I run 2 venoms.

But its the only list played. I'd love to see some of the others.. but alas, they are largly relegated to the fringes of the hobby due to the poor internal balance of the DE list.

DE are a master army with a need to be precise and good as one mistake can cost everything

There is nothing "masterful" about fielding more targets than the opponent has guns and rush him. It's by far the most brainless army currently in the 40K portfolio.

As opposed to GK concept of "Pyscannon/Dreadnaught everything to death. Then assault" Again it comes down to play style. You can play GK as you would dark eldar. You can't play DE as you would GK. Name an army that doesn't just play as "demech then kill" these days.

My point. GKs can be played in a variety of ways. DE cannot.

Also Ravagers wouldn't be as used if the Fliers had kits. (i know one does, which is why you see a lot of them now). And the GK heavy is so balenced in 99% of lists. "Dreadnaught, Autocannon x 2, Psybolt. "Dreadnaught, Autocannon x 2, Psybolt. "Dreadnaught, Autocannon x 2, Psybolt."

Lack of kits hasn't stopped some of the more imaginative Henchmen armies. Maybe it's a sign of the type of players that flock to DE.. no easy kit, no play. Hobby is likely to much of a burder to the "need-quick-fix-DE-players" these days.

NeitherI, nor the DE book ever mentioned Horde army. The only reason they sometimes outnumber other more hordey armies is cos noone plays horde armies in those armies that are supposed to be (Orks are no longer horde...they're mechs and bikes, Nids are rarely hordey any more, Guard aren't massed troops anymore, they're parking lots and aircraft)

All those books and lists existed well before DE was released. Maybe Kelly wasn't aware of those books when he wrote DE? Is that what you are saying? Or all those Ork, Nid, IG armies suddenly did a 180 when DE were released? No. The book was written to a known context and failed miserably. All there is.

GK lists take 30 odd Purifiers. The fact the fluff says theres only 40 odd of them in existance begs the question why they're all on the field at once. Draigo is the ultimate GK, and is locked in the warp, and only turns up in truely dire conditins when deamons open the warp up and he can get out. So how does he turn up in a combat patrol mission against the Tau?

Why not. Playing the rare, exception and elite is the draw of Grey Knights (and Space Marines more broadly). You may not like that, but it's hardly unique to Grey Knights. DE aren't a "common sight" either. And by this logic of yours, 90% of 40K players should probably play Orks and the other 10% IG because thats a good spread of whats out there? Screw that. I enjoy fielding 40 purifiers from a fluff reason because that is all there is. That is the appeal.

Draigos fluff is an abomination, just satisfying Matt Wards (who I normally have no problem with as a writer) hard on for "mahreens must be teh best at everything!"
As is the GK sacrificing the sisters story. It sets them as being WAAC, and paints them sufficiently as physcopaths, but is just poor writing.

It's all better written than anything in the DE codex by a large, large margin.

Again, as opposed to GK battling demons (very realistic there), or boxes that can suck people into dimensional prisons? Or that when the GK's were founded they moved the entire planetoid into a different dimension to hide it? And i still can't fathom that you think a micro black hole trap is bugs bunny story telling, but one man wandering across the warp turning up when he can, or a guy who has physic ghosts following him is good stroytelling

The Warp is a fictional creation. Is it possible to suck people into dimensional prisms or not? I don't know. Is it possible to walk the warp or not? I don't know. Is it possible to fight with Daemons as urges made manifest? I don't know. Ultimately, it is up to the writer to define them, and Ward IMO did a great job of making the Warp more amendable to 40K game-play, campaigns and story-driven game-play, not least with Draigo. Realism does not apply, as there is no gauge to measure "realism" of the Warp. That said, there is a long 40K tradition of beings from the Warp leaving it and beings from outside entering it. It is not without precedence (How about Maugan Ra solo-hiking across the Eye of Terror for example).

However, we do know what [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole]Black Holes[/url] do. We do know that a supermassive singularity with enough gravity to instantly "suck in" a humanoid cannot be a "micro-black-hole" and would cause galaxy-wide disturbances with the gravitational changes it induces IF it were suddenly unleashed, already suspending disbelief in accepting that it was a-priori contained by super-sci-fi-magic technology. To flout commom knowledge and basic physics like that is just a sign of poor writing, lack of care and interests, and a disregard for the intelligence of the readership on Kelly's part.

[Lexington]

Have we really gotten this far without a nomination for Imperial Armor 10? More gorgeous fleshing out of the Badab War. Definitely deserves a nod.

Also, guys? Don't feed the Zweitroll.

[SotonShades]

Personnaly I couldn't vote for something I haven't played with/against or at the very least read. Therefore Dreadfleet deffinitely gets my vote.

As for the DE vs GK showdown we have, DrLove and Zweischneid do both make good points (or did before reverting to repeating arguments for the sake of it). Personnally I feel that DE is a marginally better codex over all. I like that the fluff takes a bit of a back step from the rest of the 40k universe, concentrating on the background of the DE more than anything else. I also found that the GK codex took things possibly a bit too far for me; not by much, but just enough to put me off it a bit. I don't honestly feel that either list is more spammy than the other. Both have a variety of builds that can be competitive. The main problem is that both are of the era of the internet where they so quickly get boiled down to what is supposed to be an optimum, little taking in to account for individual styles of play.

[Zweischneid]

Also, guys? Don't feed the Zweitroll.

I am not the one trying to "de-nominate" other people's suggestions.

If I am truly so "out there" with my appreciation of the Grey Knight Codex, you've got nothing to fear by taking it into the vote. It'll get one measly vote from me and you'll be proven right.

Why so much angst of having it nominated?

[DrLove42]

No ones being angsty at GK ebing nominated.

They being angsty about you saying codex DE, one of the mostly widely regarded best codexes is rubbish.

Just point out 4 people have nominated DE for winning, and that book wasn't even out this year!

[Zweischneid]

Just point out 4 people have nominated DE for winning, and that book wasn't even out this year!

Shows you what sort of nitwits tend to be attracted to the book and "widely regard it as the best codex".

[reynor]

Dreadfleet.

Encourage GW to put out more beautiful self-contained rules like Dreadfleet.

[Slug]

Not sure what I would nominate, haven't read enough this year, but from what I've heard Tamurkhan deserves it.

However please don't try to say the Draigo fluff is at all justified, go read HH and you see Corax scything through dozens of space marines, even Lorgar could easily take care of any marine and he was one of the worst at combat. Then Draigo comes and manages to subdue a daemon primarch, Mortarion who was one of the more competent, to the point where he can carve names into him. Mortarion, a being so much more powerful then Draigo and whose control over the warp would far outdo anything Draigo could manage, it just goes against so much/all of the fluff.

As to army lists, sorry but the GK are a great book in terms of having multiple builds , but the DE certainly have no less, to say you don't see them so they don't exist is illogical as there are allot more of the over all community who don't go online then then those who do. Both have plenty of different valid builds which can be worked effectively. DE do have to be handled with care because knocking 6 raiders out of the air is not hard if they aren't in cover, GK do have, more so then other marines, the advantage of survivability and flexibility to get you out of most mistakes.

Also to convert a flyer effectively so that it fits with the DE theme is vastly more difficult then to create any sort of henchmen.

Also you are coming across as a bit of an aggressive arse who refuses to believe any other codex can match his precious GK, so can I then say, well I guess that's the type of person the GK book attracts.