Vanilla Preds, are they worth it?

[ElDuchen]

I have a dakka pred and a autocannon/lascannon pred in my 1500 list. I haven't had a lot of games with them, but I find that they are quite useful, especially if facing a mech list. Both preds can go for light armor quite easily, but the dakka pred is great for softening up infantry before they get at my tac squads. I have a DT LR Crusader in the list as well with 5 terminators, which draws a lot of the early fire, leaving the preds to set up for downrange shots.

[Infinite Freedom]

This is the wrong question. Your question should be : This is my list (listing x y z) and I am thinking of substituting dakka preds for (y). Do you think this is a good idea, or would q be a better choice?

You should also state the purpose of the list as picking a list for all comers is significantly different to say picking a list for your local metagame which has, say, 3 tyranid swarm players and 2 orks.

Then we can help you. Simply asking ' is x any good' doesn't work as most units (except maybe praetorians) can be good if the list is built around them or the list lacks a certain niche which you need to fill. Don't pick things because other people say they are good or because you see other people using them. Think about what you are trying to achieve with your list and pick your units accordingly. This is a common mistake.

I will try to demonstrate this below.

Dakka preds are good in a meched up shootie list. One way of playing this type of list is below

Librarian nullzone, gate 100

ELITE
Dreadnought:2x twin autocannon
Dreadnought: 2x twin autocannon

TROOPS
Marine Squad I: 5x extra marines missile launcher melta gun combi melta
Razorback - twin plas/lascannon

Marine Squad II : 5x extra marines missile launcher melta gun combi melta 185
Razorback - twin plas/lascannon

Marine Squad III : 5x extra marines missile launcher plasma gun combi plasma
Razorback - twin plas/lascannon

Fast atttack
Typhoon

HEAVY SUPPORT
Predator - heavy bolter sponsons
Predator - heavy bolter sponsons
Predator - heavy bolter sponsons

This list has 20 points left over for a 1500 list. The dakka preds are helped in this list by the presence of dreadnoughts and razorbacks, meaning that your opponents needs a a lot of str 7 and above firepower as anything less will likely go to waste. You could swap out the razorbacks for rhinos and leave your opponent nothing apart from vehicles to shoot at. In this scenario, the predators are likely to be ignored as your opponent will probably (rightly) determine that the razorbacks and dreads are higher priorities for him.
Here your rough plan is that the razorbaks/ dreads open up your opponents transports and your predators dakka the things inside. A plan.

A bad list for a predator would be something like

Pedro Cantor

TROOPS
Marine Squad II : 5x extra marines missile launcher melta gun powerfist combi melta
Rhino

Marine Squad II : 5x extra marines missile launcher melta gun powerfist combi melta
Rhino

ELITE
Sternguard Squad 5x extra sternguard, 10x combi weapons
Terminator squad: 2x cyclone missile launcher

HEAVY SUPPORT
Predator - heavy bolter sponsons

This is a much more assault orientated list, with Pedro giving everyone within 12" +1A which is nice for the terminators and the guys with powerfists, but can still pack a punch at range. Here the dakka pred is not a good choice as it is likely to be left at base without any support, it can't use Pedro's buff, there aren't many vehicles about to 'hide' it, and it's not really doing anything that the rest of list can't do already.

A better option (for this list) might be to give the sternguard a rhino so that they can join in the fun, and maybe give the sergeant a powerfist. Alternatively a scout squad which can potentially benefit from Pedro's bonus, be a little better at resisting assault and can sit on an objective, allowing the rest of the list to move forwards.

TLDR: Select a list, not individual components. Most choices in a codex can be bad or good selections, depending what else is in the list.

Okay, here is my current list.

HQ
Lysander

Troops
10 man Tactical
Missile and Flamer
Razorback with HK

10 man Tactical
Missile and Flamer
Razorback with TL Lascannon

Elites
Terminator
Assault Cannon
Single Chainfist

Terminator Squad
Single Chainfist

Dreadnaught
Assualt Cannon
Heavy Flamer
Drop Pod with Locator Beacon

Heavy Supprt

Predator
TL Lascannon
HB sponsons
Chronus

Vindicator
Siege Shield

Land Raider Crusader
Multi-melta

That is my 1850.

Yes, I decided to field the Predator.

[Vashtek]

Okay, here is my current list.

HQ
Lysander

Troops
10 man Tactical
Missile and Flamer
Razorback with HK

10 man Tactical
Missile and Flamer
Razorback with TL Lascannon

Elites
Terminator
Assault Cannon
Single Chainfist

Terminator Squad
Single Chainfist

Dreadnaught
Assualt Cannon
Heavy Flamer
Drop Pod with Locator Beacon

Heavy Supprt

Predator
TL Lascannon
HB sponsons
Chronus

Vindicator
Siege Shield

Land Raider Crusader
Multi-melta

That is my 1850.

Yes, I decided to field the Predator.

Ok. How do you find this list is working out for you? What do your recent experiences tell you?

One thing that immediately shouts out to me is your lack of troops. Unless your group does things differently, 2/3 of scenarios are based around capturing objectives. Your troops aren't really built for taking objectives (razorbacks not rhinos, no real assault capability), and they are only ok at defending.
I try to take a minimum of 3 'proper' troop choices even at 1500 points. I appreciate you can combat squad but you need 10 men to achieve anything.

The other thing that I'm unsure about the list is the dreadnought in the drop pod. Now I can see how dreadnoughts in drop pods work, especially with other units in pods or if you have fast moving assault units to support them, but your current set up doesn't really have either. It seems to me that you will drop the dreadnought, hope it blows something up (unlikely) and then hope the rest of the opponent's army doesn't kill it (unlikely). Either that or you drop him back close to your lines and you have wasted the drop pod. I see that you have given the pod a locater beacon for your terminators but I really wouldn't reserve shooting terminators. They have guns and you should use them. Reserves are unreliable (often not arriving until turn 3/4) and your list needs all its guns on the board.

So I would make a choice. Do I want to make a shooting army (with lysander terminators as a counter charge unit) or do I want to make an assault based army (with drop pod dreadnoughts and assault troops in pods or deep striking). At the moment your army is caught between those two options and is doing nothing very effectively. I expect that your army often gets separated into three parts : the sit at home squad, the dreadnought arriving on turn one and the terminators arriving later, either by deep strike or land raider. The opponent(if he is any good) can bring his entire force to bear on your individual aspects to defeat you.

[bloodangel 83]

Hey guys and girls, in my BA army i use my auto cannon/ HB pred, TL Las/las sponsons pred, BAAL Pred assualt cannon/HB BAAL Pred HF/flamer sponsons with a vend w/ siege shield, mind you not all at once but it shows that preds are great for mulitiable roles. As far as list it depends on the way you play and if you want a shooty list go for it. BA83

[Infinite Freedom]

Ok. How do you find this list is working out for you? What do your recent experiences tell you?

One thing that immediately shouts out to me is your lack of troops. Unless your group does things differently, 2/3 of scenarios are based around capturing objectives. Your troops aren't really built for taking objectives (razorbacks not rhinos, no real assault capability), and they are only ok at defending.
I try to take a minimum of 3 'proper' troop choices even at 1500 points. I appreciate you can combat squad but you need 10 men to achieve anything.

The other thing that I'm unsure about the list is the dreadnought in the drop pod. Now I can see how dreadnoughts in drop pods work, especially with other units in pods or if you have fast moving assault units to support them, but your current set up doesn't really have either. It seems to me that you will drop the dreadnought, hope it blows something up (unlikely) and then hope the rest of the opponent's army doesn't kill it (unlikely). Either that or you drop him back close to your lines and you have wasted the drop pod. I see that you have given the pod a locater beacon for your terminators but I really wouldn't reserve shooting terminators. They have guns and you should use them. Reserves are unreliable (often not arriving until turn 3/4) and your list needs all its guns on the board.

So I would make a choice. Do I want to make a shooting army (with lysander terminators as a counter charge unit) or do I want to make an assault based army (with drop pod dreadnoughts and assault troops in pods or deep striking). At the moment your army is caught between those two options and is doing nothing very effectively. I expect that your army often gets separated into three parts : the sit at home squad, the dreadnought arriving on turn one and the terminators arriving later, either by deep strike or land raider. The opponent(if he is any good) can bring his entire force to bear on your individual aspects to defeat you.

The Assault Cannon squad deep strikes. The other Squad rides in the Raider with Lysander. I combat squad the Tacs and move them forward in the Razorbacks. Dread drops in close to a suitable target. Vindiee makes a beeline for the closest infantry blob or heavy armor. Pred and the Missiles sit back and shoot.

Works better in practice than it does on paper.

[Mr. Furious]

I only run my Predators with the Autocannon and HB Sponsons. Versatile firepower that's a pretty good value.

I prefer Lascannons on my Razorbacks and Landraiders.

[jifel]

Something I've been thinking about for small (1000 and below) games, how about 3 preds with zero upgrades? Thats an armour 13 wall with 3 autocannons, and dirt cheap. That could put some hurt on rhinos and chimeras and would make your opponent shoot them, but then theyd only be killing a small part of your army points wise.

[Tynskel]

yes, but for one less tank, you greatly increase the firepower.

[Greenskin]

Vashtek pretty much wins this discussion with the statement that a predator's weapon configuration is not as important a question as what roll the predator plays in the army and how it is supported in that roll by the rest fo your forces. That said, I would caution against taking a pred with some guns that are lascannons and some that arent. with either the AutoLas or the TL Las/HB sponsons, you are wasting some of the unit's firepower. I've seen a lot of people on here suggesting predators that have a mix of las and something else, but particularly with heavy bolter/las, you are going to end up either wasting HB shots at the heavy AV target that your Las turret is shooting, or pissing the lascannon away on infantry that the HBs are designed for. Auto/Las is more viable due to the Auto's ability to threaten armor at equal range to the lascannons, but it is still more of a light vehicle/heavy infantry killer than the tank-killing lascannon.
if you are going to take sponsons at all, I think it best to take HBs with the Autocannon or go for all las.

[canoebuilder001]

I am not a fan of the Pred in Vanilla Marines. It is too static. And in my play-group, static vehicles get crunched by powerklaws, monsterous creatures, and meltabombs. A devistator squad seems a better bet.