Chapter Champion

[VulkansApprentice]

Ok, I'm going crazy here. I've been going back and forth over the options for Honor Guard, and I just can't shake what the option for a Chapter Champion to replace his bolter with a combat blade is for. I know that Calgar has double fists and a power sword, and he can choose to forgo the fists for attacks at initiative with the sword. But reading through the options for the champion I'm coming up with the following;

-He is already armed with a power weapon, pistol, and bolter, base.

-ANY MODEL has the option to TAKE a relic blade, not REPLACE something with a relic blade, so taking the upgrade would give him a relic blade, bolter, pistol, and power weapon.

-Now I can understand that if he had to REPLACE his power sword with the relic blade that he would be down to a bolter, relic blade, and pistol. Now he would only have his base attacks with the relic. However, if he replaced the bolter with the blade he could have 3 attacks at S6 with the relic, or 4 attacks (non-S6 non-PW)) with the pistol and combat blade. (I guess useful for an extra attack against horde? Though I'd rather have the sure kills from the relic)

-But seeing as how he already has the relic blade and bolter and pistol and PW, why need the blade? Is it only if he REPLACES his PW with a TH, then he would need the blade to double with pistol, so he could then attack at initiative?

Is there any other reason for the combat blade, or am I just driving myself crazy over nothing?

Also, what sense does it make that a company champion gets a combat shield, when the chapter champion can't?

[Gotthammer]

Looks cool

Mostly to match up with the models I'd imagine. The comp champion gets one in the box, so he still needs the option (like assault sgts). I'm not familiar with the Chapter Champion model but I imagine he has a sword and knife (or axe and knife).

[EmperorEternalXIX]

The combat blade plus his pistol would give him an extra attack, just like it does for a scout.

This is my theory: You take the relic blade, the combat blade, etc. It gives him +1 attack. But the rules state you only use one of your special CC weapons and that all of your attacks gain the benefits of it.

So he basically can get +1 attack and that extra attack is usable to add another swing to the Relic Blade.

This is of course retarded beyond comparison, because he is now offensively ten times better than a Chapter Master. But...technically, as far as I can tell, this is legally how it happens.

[Nabterayl]

The combat blade plus his pistol would give him an extra attack, just like it does for a scout.

This is my theory: You take the relic blade, the combat blade, etc. It gives him +1 attack. But the rules state you only use one of your special CC weapons and that all of your attacks gain the benefits of it.

All the benefits and all the penalties, don't forget - see page 1 of the [url=http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2030054_40k_Rulebook_March_2009.pdf]rulebook errata[/url]. So if you're equipped with a relic blade, a pistol, and a combat blade, and you're using the relic blade's advantages, you're also subject to its restrictions - namely, that it's a two-handed weapon, and thus cannot claim the +1A bonus for using two one-handed weapons. On the other hand, you could arguably not use the relic blade and get the extra attack.*

VulkansApprentice has it right, though, I think - the only time you'd ever want to have the combat blade is if you had replaced the power sword with a thunder hammer, in which case you might choose to have an extra attack and strike at Initiative.

* There is, of course, a debate as to whether you can choose not to use a special weapon if you have a special weapon and two non-special weapons. If you and your group swing a certain way, then there is never a point to replacing the champion's bolter with a combat blade, because he can never choose to use it. Which is among the reasons I don't interpret page 35 that way, but that is a [url=http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=1107]different thread[/url] - possibly [url=http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=1170]two[/url].

[DarkLink]

You definitely cannont get +1A with the Relic Blade. Additionally, I believe the way the special weapon rules are worded require you to use whatever special weapons you have (so a Sargent with a powerfist must use the powerfist), though I'd check the rules before you took my word for that.

I see no flaw in the logic you give in the OP, and since you can pick which special weapons you use, it is entirely possible for you to take a Relic blade, but choose to use the Power weapon insetead, as you get +1A with it.

The combat blade is pretty much useless, though.

[EmperorEternalXIX]

What about something like a Thunder Hammer? You can give him a Thunder Hammer; that wouldn't get the +1 A either, right?

[Nabterayl]

What about something like a Thunder Hammer? You can give him a Thunder Hammer; that wouldn't get the +1 A either, right?

Thunder Hammer + CCW does not get an extra attack, no. As for whether you can use pistol and CCW when you are equipped with a thunder hammer, pistol, and CCW, personally I think that's up for debate, though I believe the consensus view is that you can't.

[Rapture]

Thunder Hammer + CCW does not get an extra attack, no. As for whether you can use pistol and CCW when you are equipped with a thunder hammer, pistol, and CCW, personally I think that's up for debate, though I believe the consensus view is that you can't.

If you have multiple weapons that conflict you get to choose which ones to use.

Ex. Either the thunder hammer for 3 attacks or the sword and pistol for 4 attacks.

At least I think that is what the rule book says...

[Fowlplaychiken]

You definitely cannont get +1A with the Relic Blade. Additionally, I believe the way the special weapon rules are worded require you to use whatever special weapons you have (so a Sargent with a powerfist must use the powerfist), though I'd check the rules before you took my word for that.

I see no flaw in the logic you give in the OP, and since you can pick which special weapons you use, it is entirely possible for you to take a Relic blade, but choose to use the Power weapon insetead, as you get +1A with it.

The combat blade is pretty much useless, though.

Actually this came up at the local GW store lately and the ruling from all 3 employees (manager included) was that you can, indeed, opt to not use a piece of wargear like a power fist, in essence turning it off so that you can strike at initiative. Not often someone would choose to do this however

[Nabterayl]

If you have multiple weapons that conflict you get to choose which ones to use.

Ex. Either the thunder hammer for 3 attacks or the sword and pistol for 4 attacks.

At least I think that is what the rule book says...

The rulebook is ambiguous; it only ever explicitly contemplates two [one-handed] weapons. I think the consensus is that if you have three special weapons, you get to choose which two you use (see [url=http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=1107]this thread[/url]). The wording of page 35, however, leaves it ambiguous as to whether your choice is constrained if you have one special and two non-special weapons (see [url=http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=1170]this thread[/url]).

Actually this came up at the local GW store lately and the ruling from all 3 employees (manager included) was that you can, indeed, opt to not use a piece of wargear like a power fist, in essence turning it off so that you can strike at initiative. Not often someone would choose to do this however

If that's what they thought, they need to go back and re-read page 35, I suspect. This is one of those changes from 4th edition to 5th. In 4th edition you could explicitly "turn off" special weapons. In 5th edition you can't - if you have a power fist and a bolt pistol, for instance, you must use the power fist. If you have a power fist, a bolt pistol, and a chainsword, there's some ambiguity - and if you have a power fist, a power sword, and a poisoned weapon, more ambiguity still.