Necron WBB Opinions

[Darxaan]

I've tossed around ideas for how to "fix" Necrons with a friend of mine. Kire, you know who you are.

Keeping on-topic with this thread, we our thoughts on WBB are this:
- Make it FNP. USR's make the game easier to play.
- Res orb negates all the circumstances that disallow FNP normally.
- Make the warriors T5 with a 4+ Sv. This along with some other statline changes keeps them from being pallet-swapped plague marines without making them seriously less hearty than they are now. What's important to note here is that plague marines are T 4(5) which means S8 will still instant-death them and this negates FNP while making warriors a native T5 means you need S10 to negate FNP and S10 is far less available than S8/S9 (though, granted, S10 generally comes in the form of pie-plates in which case you don't usually need very many of them, and granted that AP2/1 is plenty common at S8/9, but I digress.)
- Ld10 and stubborn. This is a no-brainer and really captures the "feel" of necrons, IMHO.

Now, in regards to phase-out:
I don't think it should be dropped completely because it is a wonderfully flavorful aspect of the army and helps to balance some of the more outrageously powerful aspects (*cough* monolith *cough*). However, as-is, the rule hurts us too much.
What would make it viable would be on a per-unit basis, as I have seen some people suggest. The way I would handle it would be this: any morale check a necron unit is forced to take, while they are stubborn, if they should fail it on their Ld10, then the unit phases out. This, while a harsh result when it does happen, would be reasonable in trade for some badass-ness while keeping the lowly warrior's point cost down (things like changing the gauss rule to rending, making warriors SNP/relentless, etc.).

Now, of course, this is just all my speculation/wishful thinking. But until we get a new codex, it's all I've got.
...well, that and a bunch of necrons on a shelf gathering dust.

[Lord Anubis]

Actually... I think we've all blanked on the easiest fix of all.

Keep phase out, just lower the percentage. Still fits fluff-wise, but also makes the army much more long-lasting.

If you phased out at 10% remaining instead of 25%, it makes non-Necron units much more viable in the game, but still causes problem if you lean on them too much.

Just a thought...

[Prometheus]

FYI, Prometheus, most of what you stated is in the draft copy I wrote myself 6 months ago, although I deviated a bit, and went further in some other areas.

What can I say great minds think alike.

(Had to say it.)

[Lerra]

I'd prefer to see Necron warriors with Fearless over Stubborn, and keep the points cost down. Make their base cost lower and give them interesting upgrade options. Perhaps a special HQ could give them stubborn.

It would also be interesting to see warriors with Counter-Attack. The Necron Warriors step forward, rapid fire their opponents, and dare them to charge. The mechanic could be interesting, especially if you give them an upgrade similar to photon grenades that deprives your opponent of the bonus attack from charging.

Considering the point cost and low maneuverability of warriors, they need to be better in assault, but you also don't want to see warriors played like space marines who push forward and then initiate assault.

In casual games, we often let the Necron player alter Phase Out so that, rather than automatically losing at 25%, he loses WBB on all units at 25%. It seems balanced enough, and certainly more fair than phasing an opponent out just before he tables you.

[sketchesofpayne]

Whoa, I just spaced out for a moment there thinking about the prospect of Necron warriors having defensive grenades.

...

It would be awesome, but there'd be no end to griping from my opponents. I guess plague marines have them already... I'll just say that's an upgrade I'd pay +3 points per model for!

[Darxaan]

I'd prefer to see Necron warriors with Fearless over Stubborn, and keep the points cost down. Make their base cost lower and give them interesting upgrade options. Perhaps a special HQ could give them stubborn.

It would also be interesting to see warriors with Counter-Attack. The Necron Warriors step forward, rapid fire their opponents, and dare them to charge. The mechanic could be interesting, especially if you give them an upgrade similar to photon grenades that deprives your opponent of the bonus attack from charging.

Considering the point cost and low maneuverability of warriors, they need to be better in assault, but you also don't want to see warriors played like space marines who push forward and then initiate assault.

In casual games, we often let the Necron player alter Phase Out so that, rather than automatically losing at 25%, he loses WBB on all units at 25%. It seems balanced enough, and certainly more fair than phasing an opponent out just before he tables you.

See, I don't think Fearless really fits necrons because they're machines and though they could be instructed to march forward with absolutely no concern for themselves, I think that in general, they'd still fall back when battlefield conditions dictate so.

Counter attack is an interesting suggestion that I hadn't heard before, but I'm on the fence about it. I definitely like the idea of defensive grenades, though, as someone else suggested. Making things like these upgrade options might not be a bad idea:

consider a new Warrior profile like this:
Ws2 Bs3 S3 T5 W1 I2 A1 Ld10 Sv4+
(Bs3 is to compensate for changing gauss to rending which is a big buff against infantry and light vehicles)
Now, like this the lowly warrior would die pretty easy in close combat but with FNP, Stubborn, SNP and what amounts to a bolter with rending, he makes for a pretty scary unit. I would say that, given points deflation and codex creep, that a warrior like this would go at 16pts/model. Now for an extra 2 pts/model you can give them something that counts as defensive grenades and if (and only if) you take that option you can pay another 2-4 pts/model to give them counter attack (the effect the rule has on the game, I believe, has valid merits as a way of balancing things but it just doesn't "feel necron" to me so I'm not 100% behind this particular idea). Possibly an additional option would be another 1 or 2 pts/model to make the unit fearless--instructions to terminate John Conn- err... I mean all life at any cost. (I don't imagine fearless should cost too much since 1: deathwing terminators get fearless AND deathwing assault for only +1point/model over standard codex termies and 2: fearless can be as much a bane as a blessing (no mercy anyone?) particularly in a bad-at-assault unit )

I also had thoughts about changes to the gauss flayer profile to make it less like a bolter. Idea I'm currently entertaining:
S4 AP4 rapidfire 24" rending (granted, now it's rending kraken bolts, but at least those are more limited)
AP4 I believe is far more befitting a weapon that's described as shredding matter on the atomic level. and it's not like AP4 is a huge buff over AP5 since 4+ cover saves are everywhere now which means in 90% of cases, it won't even matter, but when it does matter, man will it ever.
The range I'm happy with. SNP means movement can count toward max range, so leaving it at 24" wouldn't be so bad since you still get 6-11" more range than you do compared to moving and firing rapidfire weapons without SNP. This means Warriors can effectively threaten a radius of 25-30" with Bs3 S4 AP4 rending.

Doing things like this leaves room for Immortals to be made into better versions of warriors (better, better versions than they are now)
My thoughts on an Immortal's stats being:
Ws2 Bs4 S4 T5 W1 I2 A1 Ld10 Sv3+ FNP Stubborn Relentless
and gauss blasters:
S5 AP4 Heavy 2 30" rending
Giving immortals relentless and making their weapons heavy instead of assault is largely just a cosmetic change, but I don't really think the blaster is supposed to be an assault weapon--just look at the size of it and how the immortals hold it! The thing has to be as massive as an assault cannon. The old codex was written before there was a standard rule such as relentless (I think. I haven't been playing that long so I might be talking out my arse here. Please correct me if I am).
With Bs4 and S5 rending out to 30" these guys are a force to be reckoned with. I'd say 25-30pts/each and the same kinda options as warriors: defensive grenades, fearless, etc.

In specific regards to counter-attack:
in tandem with defensive grenades, this means almost nobody wants to be the first to assault a unit of necrons--you get no bonus attacks and instead, they do! However, all their attacks will be hitting on 4+ against most infantry and 5+ against characters and badass assault units (anyone with a Ws of 5 or higher). Add to this a S3 on basic warriors and most of these extra hits will need 4+/5+ to wound and they still lack power weapons AND let's not forget it's all on I2 so a bunch of these extra attacks will be reasonably likely killed before then.
At the very least, something like this could make warriors able to hold their ground the turn they're charged which could mean the difference between losing an objective or contesting it.
The description Lerra gives of what the counter-attack rule would be an abstract representation of, sounds like stand-and-shoot from WFB and that is definitely "necron" I will grant that.
My only real qualm is that very many people will hear necrons with counter-attack? and immediately shout "Cheese!" It takes consideration to realize that counter-attack is really only scary when you put it on a badass assault unit like anything space wolves. When you put it on warriors, it just makes them hard to kill which is really what they're all about.

Again, this is all just my speculation and wishful thinking. Maybe I'll make a project of drafting my own version of the codex off these ideas, but right now it's just fantasy, so don't nobody take anything I said here to mean this is how necrons WILL be, only how I personally, think they SHOULD be.

[DarkLink]

I've tossed around ideas for how to "fix" Necrons with a friend of mine. Kire, you know who you are.

Keeping on-topic with this thread, we our thoughts on WBB are this:
- Make it FNP. USR's make the game easier to play.
- Res orb negates all the circumstances that disallow FNP normally.
- Make the warriors T5 with a 4+ Sv. This along with some other statline changes keeps them from being pallet-swapped plague marines without making them seriously less hearty than they are now. What's important to note here is that plague marines are T 4(5) which means S8 will still instant-death them and this negates FNP while making warriors a native T5 means you need S10 to negate FNP and S10 is far less available than S8/S9 (though, granted, S10 generally comes in the form of pie-plates in which case you don't usually need very many of them, and granted that AP2/1 is plenty common at S8/9, but I digress.)
- Ld10 and stubborn. This is a no-brainer and really captures the "feel" of necrons, IMHO.

Now, in regards to phase-out:
I don't think it should be dropped completely because it is a wonderfully flavorful aspect of the army and helps to balance some of the more outrageously powerful aspects (*cough* monolith *cough*). However, as-is, the rule hurts us too much.
What would make it viable would be on a per-unit basis, as I have seen some people suggest. The way I would handle it would be this: any morale check a necron unit is forced to take, while they are stubborn, if they should fail it on their Ld10, then the unit phases out. This, while a harsh result when it does happen, would be reasonable in trade for some badass-ness while keeping the lowly warrior's point cost down (things like changing the gauss rule to rending, making warriors SNP/relentless, etc.).

Now, of course, this is just all my speculation/wishful thinking. But until we get a new codex, it's all I've got.
...well, that and a bunch of necrons on a shelf gathering dust.

I like your ideas. I personally think they should get FNP with Rending gauss (in principle, the rules are similar as is and easily justified by the fluff, plus the USR's are simpler and more balanced). I like the idea of T5 and 4+ saves, so long as they don't decide that means lords and immortals should be T6 standard (destroyer body for the lord like it currently is would be fine, though). Phase out should either be dropped from the rules and used as justification for why Necrons aren't fearless, or completely re-written. I like the idea of stubborn, too.

[Darxaan]

I wouldn't make Immortals and Lords T6, no... My idea that would make them stand out as more robust would be 3+ and 3+/4++ saves respectively, and better Ws/Bs to boot.