Abusing the Rules: Rubberbanding, this can't be right

[Kovnik Obama]

People come to Warmachine from 40k all the time and assume it is their business to cry foul on rules that they think are "broken" because that's what they are used to. This is the wrong attitude to have. When you find a rule that seems overpowered, the first thing that comes through your mind should be "in future games, how do I use this to my advantage?" That's because the people at Privateer already know about it, and have accepted it as part of the game. Which means so should you.

If you call someone out for using rules as written you are wrong. Period.

That is entirely false, and more so speaks of Warhammer2Warmachine translation teething pains than finding yourself in disbelief with a ruling. PP have admitted the Shield Wall rule doesn't work as intended. They do make mistake, and sometimes, it's more a problem to fix the mistake than to let it be. It could be this in the case of rubberbanding, because it IS a weird interaction, one which depart with the norm of unit coherency. But it isn't just clearly so.

It is however quite important that players keep questioning the rule set, so that it can improve.

[GentleBen]

That is entirely false, and more so speaks of Warhammer2Warmachine translation teething pains than finding yourself in disbelief with a ruling. PP have admitted the Shield Wall rule doesn't work as intended. They do make mistake, and sometimes, it's more a problem to fix the mistake than to let it be. It could be this in the case of rubberbanding, because it IS a weird interaction, one which depart with the norm of unit coherency. But it isn't just clearly so.

It is however quite important that players keep questioning the rule set, so that it can improve.

Rubberbanding is 100% supported by the ruleset. This has been confirmed by multiple infernals. Things that don't work as intended get an errata. That's why the errata document exists. Rubberbanding may get an errata someday. Until then you have to play it as written. No matter how against the spirit of the rules you may find it.

There's also a tremendous difference between questioning the ruleset and calling players out for using it. You don't get to pick and choose the rules you like.

[j78]

There's also a tremendous difference between questioning the ruleset and calling players out for using it. You don't get to pick and choose the rules you like.

well that's not completely true. you get to pick and choose the rules you like, but you still have to follow the ones you don't like

[Kovnik Obama]

Rubberbanding is 100% supported by the ruleset. This has been confirmed by multiple infernals. Things that don't work as intended get an errata. That's why the errata document exists. Rubberbanding may get an errata someday. Until then you have to play it as written. No matter how against the spirit of the rules you may find it.

There's also a tremendous difference between questioning the ruleset and calling players out for using it. You don't get to pick and choose the rules you like.

Except Infernals make rulings, they aren't the game design team. They get to ask what was the intent of the rule, but then are often stuck interpreting the answer in manifested context which weren't planned by the designers. Ask to anyone who contributed to the field test if rubberbanding was an integral part of the rule set redesign, and they'll answer no (I would, and so would all my friends who playtested : I only ever saw rubberbanding appear about 9-12 months ago on Vassal). So it's either something, like Elemental damage, who got intentionally inserted at the end of the playtesting, or it's an unintended error.

Either way, you are wrong about one thing : PP do make mistakes, and sometimes they don't fix them because that would cause to redesign larger parts of the gameplay. Case in point : Shield Wall. Infernals know it's a problem, but won't FAQ it. Case in point : the PoM Battle-Engine caster resurrection shenenigan : doesn't work as intended isn't FAQed. This last one they couldn't even agree on it, and had to double-back on the ruling (at first they said it would be FAQed, then dropped it). Just because Warmahorde is a tight rule set who gets fieldtested extensively doesn't mean it is perfect.

[Marshal_Wilhelm]

I thought I had left this "should'ing" on people behind when I signed up for WM....

"I don't play to win"
Why is it then that people who say that are often so offended by losing to something they didn't anticipate, be it list building, tactics or rules?

If you are actually playing competitively, and that doesn't necessarily mean tournament games, then dudes have to take the hit on the chin. 'The burnt hand teaches best' and all that.

"I play for fun"
Some people play lawn bowels for fun. Some people go shopping for fun. Getting offended that others haven't conformed to your version of fun is pretty much setting yourself up for a fall. Again, if you're all casual and lose about your gaming time, yet someone bumps your inner man over by not doing it your way, just how casual and lose are you anyway?

+++

People have a set of rights and wrongs from their perceptions of life - their code. When someone else doesn't coincide with that code, boy oh boy, does frustration result.

When I play Space Marine, I now mess around with a few fun builds as we have quite a few newbies playing. But when the big boys come out with their super-builds and they're all mic'ed up and on one team, I simply turn my powa! level up to 11, take my best builds and up my game. Or leave if I am not up for that level of intensity.

Once you learn Bob plays hard, make the choice - play hard too, or ask him to play loose or don't play him. Getting angry doesn't help you one bit

[Vinsklortho]

In a world of yo-yoiing, pop n' drops, and Snipe Feat Go people are complaining about rubber banding? An infantry unit effectively loses one guy for a round in order to get a buff spell on the unit. This is barely different from just buffing from an arc node. Whats next? Complaints about warcasters charging their own guys in the back to reach further with their feat?

[GentleBen]

Except Infernals make rulings, they aren't the game design team. They get to ask what was the intent of the rule, but then are often stuck interpreting the answer in manifested context which weren't planned by the designers. Ask to anyone who contributed to the field test if rubberbanding was an integral part of the rule set redesign, and they'll answer no (I would, and so would all my friends who playtested : I only ever saw rubberbanding appear about 9-12 months ago on Vassal). So it's either something, like Elemental damage, who got intentionally inserted at the end of the playtesting, or it's an unintended error.

Either way, you are wrong about one thing : PP do make mistakes, and sometimes they don't fix them because that would cause to redesign larger parts of the gameplay. Case in point : Shield Wall. Infernals know it's a problem, but won't FAQ it. Case in point : the PoM Battle-Engine caster resurrection shenenigan : doesn't work as intended isn't FAQed. This last one they couldn't even agree on it, and had to double-back on the ruling (at first they said it would be FAQed, then dropped it). Just because Warmahorde is a tight rule set who gets fieldtested extensively doesn't mean it is perfect.

This is because Privateer Press makes a tremendous effort to create rules that are balanced. They aren't perfect at it but they try, and continue to be some of the best in the business in that regard.

It looks we actually agree on that.

My point isn't that Privateer is perfect. I'd never try and make that case. Its just that even if you don't like one of their rules you still have to follow them. As written. There is nothing in their literature about not using a rule if you think it sounds cheesy or contrary to some imagined "spirit of the game". If its confusing you ask an infernal. What they say goes until there is an official errata. What's bending me out of shape is all the people saying "hey that rule sounds cheesy you shouldn't play against anyone who uses it." You don't get that option in Warmachine. I guess your community could come together and decide what they want to do. But then what happens when a new guy wanders in or you go to a tourney in another town? Best to just learn to deal with it.

[wittdooley]

My only problem with it is that, for me, it doesn't pass the "common sense" test. Sure, that probably includes some "spirit of the rule" type stuff, but cest la vie.

I chose not to play WM/H In an ultra Competetive setting against people I don't know because there are simply too many combos I don't know, and I don't play often enough to know them. Contrarily, I know mostly what to expect from 40k which is why I'll play it competitively.

Do I want to win? Sure. But playing these games is fun for me, so I chose not to put myself in a situation to be completely blindsided by a combo I don't know.