What is the most effective anti-aircraft weapon?

[Denzark]

I am interested in a mathshammer expert telling me what the most effective AA weapon in the game is, against what I think is the worst air threat - the Thunderhawk.

The T-hawk has flyer status, so need a 6 to hit, 4++ save, s-points, hit a main weapon for another 4++.

So everyone's favourite hydra on S7 might not be as much cop. Particulalrly when you ffactor in any air commander worth his salt is going to target your AA!

other thoughts are Hyperion defences, Sabre Lascannon platforms, Lightning aircraft firing all air-to-air missiles into rear arc (I forget is it 12-12-10 or 12 all around?) Also contemptor with some AA capacity.

What are the thoughts everyone, could vindicare do it?

Cheers,

Denzark

[thecactusman17]

If the vindi hits it, he will definitely do damage. Another amazing option could be the gk psyrifle dread with its 4 twin linked s8 shots. Even at 6s to hit you should manage one or two and the s8 is going to help a lot. If you play Eldar at all, don't forget swooping hawks and their interceptor rule.

[Scion_of_Terra]

Swooping hawks w/ Interceptor is a good one, and is the primary reason for my ever fielding them.

Continuing the Eldar theme, Nightwings (Aerial Interceptor rule - all guns count as AA).

Looking ahead, assuming that 6th ed establishes all the new 'flying stand' skimmers as flyers, then perhaps also the DE Voidraven (dual BS4 S9 lances) or Razorwing, if they get rules similar to their craftworld cousins' flying machines.

Here's a thought: Apocalypse data sheets where flyers can take dedicated anti-air heat-seeking missiles. Unlikely, but it would be awesome.

[AbusePuppy]

I believe the Thunderhawk is 12/12/12, but I could be wrong on that.

Obviously any kind of AA platform will be your best bet- most of them are twin-linked for additional accuracy, and a few have special rules to ignore the 4+ cover that flyers normally (like the Hydra.) If you can mitigate those factors, especially the "6s to hit" part, flyers actually start looking rather fragile, since their AVs are typically quite low.

The Lightning and Nightwing are both very cost-effective AA platforms; it will be hard to do much better than them, although Hydras make a good run for it. Looking to other factions, Lootas are one of the best things Orks can use against them, as hitting on 5s vs hitting on 6s isn't really that much of a disadvantage. Tau can easily mitigate the cover and have some okay fliers, but virtually no good ground-based AA platforms; Tyranids, Daemons, and others are even worse off in that respect.

Remember that blast and template weapons can never hit flyer models; a Vindicator won't cut it.

[DarkLink]

Vindicare, not vindicator. Though the fact that the vindicare doesn't have any anti-aircraft rules so he hits on 6's with a single shot means he's not exactly good at touching flyers either. Not that I've ever seen a vindicare get more than one shot before being killed even in regular games anyways.

[DrLove42]

The bad news is you're all wrong

The 3 best AA weapons in the game are the Hydra, the FW Manticore and the Necron Pylon.

The Hydra is the only AA weapon that ignores the cover save all fliers get, already making it 50% more effective than anything else. Yes it only glances on a 5, but its a superheavy flier. You do a structure point on a roll of a 5, but chain reaction on a 4 or a 6. So you get a 50% of taking off a point, a 33% chance of chain reactioning

The FW manticore (found in IA1, on FW's site as a pdf [URL="http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/News/Downloads.html"] here[/URL] is 145 points and gets 4 AA mounted S9 AP2 Ordnance shots (which arne't blasts so hit normally).

And of course the Necron pylon - the only AA mounted strength D weapon in the game. 3 shots, hit on 3's, ignore the cover save, auto penetrate and thanks to +1 for strength D will take off a structure point 66% of the time, and chain reaction for 50%

Edit- Also Necron Tesla weapons. Get one thats twinlinked to get the best chance of hitting. Get one hit, and you get 2 free!

[Strangleweb]

Swooping hawks cannot attack a flyer unless it is hovering.

Necron Pylon is already mentioned.

However - DrLove missed two obvious candidates for me...
Eldar Nightwings and Dark Eldar Ravens. They both have AA lances (Bright/Dark respectively)- excellent against thunderhawks even at range.

Also - Tau can fire seeker missiles at it if they get some Markerlight hits. Broadsides stand a good chance too, 3 broadsides with twin linked railguns get two hits on a flyer on average, and range is not normally an issue.

I'll do some mathhammer on it now...

[DrLove42]

Swooping hawks cannot attack a flyer unless it is hovering.

Theres a data sheet of Hawks and Bahroth that lets them assault fliers with their haywire grenades. You just have to pass a test or they get run over.

As for Nightwings/Ravens.

Against light fliers (AV 10-11) they're fine.

Against AV12, they suffer as all Lances do against AV 12. 2 shots, hitting on 3's, damaging on 4's, then a 4+ save gives only a 33% chance of doing any damage. Not impossible, but wouldn't bet on it. And the Cannons on the Nightwing can only glance on 6's, so have the same 33% of getting 1 hit. And the poison cannons on the DE can't do anything

Nightwings are best as light ATA, or ATG roles.

As a side note...i'm of the opinion no flier should be AV12 except for Superheavies. Making Valks and Ravens fliers for no extra cost is insanely good. Are you seriously suggesting the side armour of a Valkyrie is the same strength as the side armour of a Thunderhawk?

[Strangleweb]

Right - done a quick bit of mathhammer for you and here's the results for some popular AA units. Note this just gives you the mean number of glancing and penetrating hits and does not account for cover saves, AP1 or D weapons getting +1 etc etc...

It shows that Dr Love is right about the lances against AV12, but it also flags up some interesting options - Contemptor Mortis anyone?

+++ EDIT - Note this is against AV12 +++



Also - careful with the Hydra - AFAIK it only ignores the cover save of skimmers and bikes, not flyers. I know flyers get the cover save in the same way as skimmers, but almost every ruling i've seen says that they move as skimmers, but still aren't skimmers, so the Hydra does not negate the save.

[Wolfshade]

And thus a new term was coined (or at least reminted)

Don't bring a Scatter Laser to a Pylon fight