1750 Eldar

[Tsarith]

At the end of March we are having a tournament at my local game store and I'm trying to make some decisions about how exactly to run my eldar. I have the following list which is roughly what I have been running in the 1750 range.

List A
HQ 1 - Farseer Total = 130
Eldar Jetbike, Fortune, Runes of Warding

HQ 1 - 8 Warlocks Total = 440
Eldar Jetbikes, 2x Destructor, 3x Embolden, 3x Enchance

Elite 1 - 5 Fire Dragons Total = 190
- Transport Wave Serpent
Twin-Linked Shuriken cannons, Spirit Stones

Elite 2 - 5 Fire Dragons Total = 190
- Transport Wave Serpent
Twin-Linked Shuriken cannons, Spirit Stones

Troop 1 - 5 Dire Avengers Total = 190
- Transport Wave Serpent
Twin-Linked EML, Spirit Stones

Troop 2 - 5 Dire Avengers Total = 190
- Transport Wave Serpent
Twin-Linked EML, Spirit Stones

Troop 3 - 5 Dire Avengers Total = 190
- Transport Wave Serpent
Twin-Linked EML, Spirit Stones

Heavy Support 2 - Fire Prism Total = 115

Heavy Support 3 - Fire Prism Total = 115

Total = 1750

I've been toying with the idea of removing the prisms and putting in a third elite probably a squad of banshees. The reason being that with the council running around I am able to usually rough up other mech armies with all those witchblades. But the downfall of the council is some silly little terminator squad showing up to hold me in combat for 3-4 turns. So if I take the banshees those can be used to help the council disengage or to go slaughter some medium strength units. I still have the fire dragons to deal with the usual situations (pesky landraiders, heavy infantry, etc etc) and the EML's on the dire avenger serpents will not only help draw fire away from the elites serpents, they will also provide me with at least a few turn one shots.

Below is my other possible list where I have removed the prisms and added the banshees.

List B
HQ 1 - Farseer Total = 130
Eldar Jetbike, Fortune, Runes of Warding

HQ 1 - 8 Warlocks Total = 405
Eldar Jetbikes, 2x Destructor, 2x Embolden, 1x Enhance


Elite 1 - 5 Fire Dragons Total = 190
- Transport Wave Serpent
Twin-Linked Shuriken cannons, Spirit Stones

Elite 2 - 5 Fire Dragons Total = 190
- Transport Wave Serpent
Twin-Linked Shuriken cannons, Spirit Stones

Elite 3 - 8 Howling Banshee's Total = 265
Exarch W/ Executioner, Acrobatic
- Transport Wave Serpent
Twin-Linked Shuriken cannons, Spirit Stones

Troop 1 - 5 Dire Avengers Total = 190
- Transport Wave Serpent
Twin-Linked EML, Spirit Stones


Troop 2 - 5 Dire Avengers Total = 190
- Transport Wave Serpent
Twin-Linked EML, Spirit Stones


Troop 3 - 5 Dire Avengers Total = 190
- Transport Wave Serpent
Twin-Linked EML, Spirit Stones


Total = 1750


Thanks in advance for the feed back guys!

[Forgottenhero]

So I gotta say, I always like Eldar Mech armies... Wave Serpents are just amazing. Super amazing DA's in Serpents are great ways to zip around and take objectives. That being said, I do have a few comments though.

Perhaps if you take the mass Serpent list you should use more EML's. They are possibly the best weapon in the Eldar army aside from fusion guns (in terms of the effectiveness of the gun vs. how much it costs. They can kill troops and low armor vehicles very efficiently). Another great choice for the top of a Serpent is the Starcannon (which would fix your terminator problem). The twinlinked gun on the WS really helps to make up for the low BS of Eldar. Another issue I see is the min. size Troops squads you've taken just for the Serpents. I mean... those tanks are great but it doesnt help if the unit inside dies instead of holding the objective it wanted. Also, I'm always iffy about taking any less than 3 heavy support choices in an Eldar army but mech lists are different so this may work out.

Suggestions:

-Increase the size of the Dire Avengers squads
-Lose one Wave Serpent/Dire Avenger squad
-Keep the size of the Fire Dragons, but replace Fire their Wave Serpents with Falcons+EMLs
-More high str, low ap weaponry on your Twinlinked turrets (EMLs, Starcannons, but no Bright Lances... theyre far too expensive and your Seer Council will be able to handle AV13+ vehicles)

[The Twilight Fade]

It looks ok as it covers most of the basics for a mechdar army.

The only thing I would reconsider is the seer council. It's massively expensive, currently the only thing outside of a vehicle and will be the target of all your opponents anti-infantry firepower. Even with fortune this is probably going to make a mess of them.

My suggestions would be to ditch the council, give the farseer stones and guide and put him in one of the serpents, Eldrad is also good for the purpose and that makes room for some extra heavy support

[Tsarith]

@The Twilight Fade:
I agree with you that it is a risky to have just a council being outside, given your doubt i surmise you have not actually seen them in action because it is a common occurance for a seer council of 7+ models to soak up 30-40 wounds and usually only lose 1-2 models. 30-40 wounds means that the enemy used probably somewhere in the range of 60-70 anti-infantry shots which in most armies is ALL of the anti-infantry fire power. If they have ALL of that in range and in LOS of my council in any turn then I have already done some very poor maneuvering. So in most cases an enemy gets maybe 15-25 wounds on the council per turn usually resulting in 1-2 deaths tops, often with some mediocre luck no deaths as most of the shots are high ap meaning that im getting my rerolled 3+ save.

@everyone else:
In any case, I welcome to devils advocate with them. They are a powerful unit and can really cause some damage if used correctly. Another list idea which I have been toying with is getting away from the mech. My idea being that I could do somthing like the following.

HQ 1 - Farseer Total = 118
Eldar Jetbike, Fortune, Singing Spear

HQ 1 - 8 Warlocks Total = 433
Eldar Jetbikes, 3x Destructor, 2x Embolden, 2x Enhance, 1x Singing Spear

HQ 2 - Farseer Total = 110
Fortune, Runes of Warding, Runes of Witnessing

Troop 1 - 10 Wraithguard Total = 399
- Warlock
Spiritseer, Singing Spear, Conceal

Troop 2 - 5 Dire Avengers Total = 190
- Transport Wave Serpent
Twin-Linked EML, Spirit Stones

Troop 3 - 5 Dire Avengers Total = 190
- Transport Wave Serpent
Twin-Linked EML, Spirit Stones

Heavy 1 - 1 Wraithlord Total = 155
EML, Brightlance

Heavy 2 - 1 Wraithlord Total = 155
EML, Brightlance

Total = 1750

In this list I still get to use the council (I just really do enjoy them ;D) but the danger of all that anti infantry fire power gets removed somewhat as now the wraithguard will take a large chunk. Since they are a big heavy scoring unit they will be a priorty for most other forces since you really do need to wipe them all out. Also with the spare farseer back there casting that fortune they are just as difficult to kill as the council. The wraithlords will obv get a cover save from the guard making them very durable gun platforms. They can also help to remove the guard from an nasty assault units that may or may not show up. The wraithguard are mainly just here to be a tough scoring unit that helps protect the wraithlords and will hopefully draw lots of fire away from the council which can go around wrecking vehicles. I hate not playing fire dragons but they really dont seem to have any purpose in a list like this. The wraithlords and EML's on the serpents handle knocking over medium armour, the council deals with av13+ with those spears and witchblades and the destructors handle any light infantry. My wraithguard CAN handle any sort of dreadknights, terminators, etc that show up on my lines and the council should be able to avoid anything like those with the speed of their bikes. A mass venom list would be possibly my worst enemy, but again most of the blasters in the venoms are ignorable, even with all the poison off the splinter cannons it should take that player many MANY turns to really wittle me down. Also I'm only bringing 10 kill points and ALL of them are dense and survivable and able to deal with many different situations. I still have 3 troops with 2 of them being very mobile giving me last turn contesting power. Am i missing anything? I really have little experience in the 1750 range as nearly all of my experience in tournies has been at hard boyz. Any ideas of things i might see at this point level that will give me any HUGE problems? Guard may be annoying but honestly if its any sort of parking lot the council makes VERY VERY short work of that many tanks clustered together.

Thoughts?
Comments?

[Forgottenhero]

I like the most updated version of your list. It seems more versatile and Wraithlords can put out some really amazing Anti-Tank hurt for their points. I see what youre using your Wraithguard for, but it can be incredibly easy to deal with that unit. Most Tyranids, poison weapons, and other Eldar Armies wouldnt have much trouble taking them down. This is the only reason I havent built an Iyanden list yet really.

I would suggest keeping your "deathstar" units to 1 per army. The amount of points players are sinking into them is just... astonishing when you think about it. Nearly half of your points are going towards the Wraithguard and Seer Council.

Im not saying this list wont succeed, I actually think it will work out quite well. Im just afraid that those few armies that could kill Wraithguard with ease, and in doing so will have no trouble in beating you on Objective-based missions. As long as you actively support that expensive troops choice then you should have no problem.

[Forgottenhero]

Also, if youre worried about a lack of anti-infantry firepower in your list, try using a squadron of War Walkers with EML's and Scatter Lasers (or just Scatters to save points). These guys can dish out SO much pain, especially due to Outflank. Plus, theyll go along with the theme of mechdar!

[thecactusman17]

Toss some spears into the Warlocks and replace all the missiles with twin linked scatters or even shuriken cannons. The spears are EXCELLENT anti-tank and even anti-dread options in both shooting and assault. The massed S6 firepower of all the tanks is going to crack open a lot of light tanks (like razorbacks and rhinos) and mow down Space Marines. Use any spare points to give as many tanks as possible underslung Shuriken Cannon upgrades, especially the troop units which will likely hop onto an objective early and then hang around nearby for the rest of the game.

[Forgottenhero]

I partially disagree on this front. Yes, Spears are really really good anti-tank weapons, but they severely limit the Warlock/Farseer's ability to damage things in Close Combat by removing one attack. If you are going to have spears in the unit, just keep them to a minimum so that you can still pour out a decent amount of attacks in CC (remember, you can always charge the tank if you fail to kill it in shooting). The less amount of attacks that your council will get in CC means that they will be tied up in it much longer on average. They already have a god-awfully low amount of attacks for the points you pay, and youre technically paying more to have them have less attacks.

As far as the Scatters/Shuriken Cannons, Yea theyre great against most armies because they pour out loads of S6 wounds. The way I see it those kinds of armies mainly work if literally EVERYTHING in your army is using them. If you did this then your only anti-tank unit versus high armor value targets (land raiders, Necron Vehicles) would be your Seer Council, which would be dangerous if they ever got unlucky and got destroyed. This is why I like to mix in several EML's due to their versatility.

Also, I feel that underslung Shuriken Cannons are pretty much worthless on Serpents because of how fast they normally move. To keep Serpents alive, youll be turbo-boosting about 1/3-1/2 of the game to benefit from Cover. Falcons and Vypers are pretty much the only things you can/should add them to (due to being fast-skimmers and being able to fire everything while moving up to 6") and because you can also give them holo-fields.

[The Twilight Fade]

@The Twilight Fade:
I agree with you that it is a risky to have just a council being outside, given your doubt i surmise you have not actually seen them in action because it is a common occurance for a seer council of 7+ models to soak up 30-40 wounds and usually only lose 1-2 models. 30-40 wounds means that the enemy used probably somewhere in the range of 60-70 anti-infantry shots which in most armies is ALL of the anti-infantry fire power. If they have ALL of that in range and in LOS of my council in any turn then I have already done some very poor maneuvering. So in most cases an enemy gets maybe 15-25 wounds on the council per turn usually resulting in 1-2 deaths tops, often with some mediocre luck no deaths as most of the shots are high ap meaning that im getting my rerolled 3+ save.

I'd like to agree with you on this as evidently you've had some good experience with it, i'm a daemons player myself and fateweaver works on similar mechanics, except he's a 3++ and can re-roll all the time.

Fortune isn't guaranteed and can potentially be nulled by a librarian/rune priest and I regularly have my guy gunned off the table by anti-infantry firepower and he's toughness 5!

Maybe i've been unlucky in this respect as there have been some games where he has been impossible to kill and the law of averages didn't apply but unfortunatly those games are few and far between for me and he either dies easily or runs off the table with a failed leadership test....the coward!!!

[Minex]

I just prefere nightspinners >>>> prisms. Otherwise i like both Lists.