A crash course in Feminism (or, why everyone should be a feminist)

[Phototoxin]

Men can father children. Women cannot. /endofthread

But to me visiting violence on a woman never is justifiable even if she's beating the snot out of you. I've never even yelled at a woman during an argument. And I've lived my whole life thinking that we men are supposed to protect women.

Se I disagree. I think visiting violence on any person is rarely justifiable, irrespective of gender. That in itself is sexist and not feminist as it's treating genders differently which isn't what feminism is supposed to want.

Also these days feminism/womens rights seem largely to be a euphamism for abortion rights.

[Psychosplodge]

I forgot the violence bit,
if a woman trys to hit me, I'd be far more likely to try to restrain her simply to prevent injury to myself,
where as a man trying to hit me would result in maximum retaliation along the lines of aiming to break their ankle/knee/put them down in order to be able to walk away.

[Grenadier]

When I went to college I was enrolled in a mental health professional program. Counseling and the like. And so the courses covered virtually everything involved from psychology to "multicultural issue" and more. There were some classes about feminism and abused and battered women, etc.

There's a lot of issues women in my area are facing and it doesn't seem to be getting much better for them here. Domestic violence in Appalachia is swept under the rug for the most part and there's little support for abused women around here.

But, sometimes I wonder. One day I was eating at a restaurant. The table over from me had three women. And I could overhear their conversation. Each of them talked about how bad their men treated them. Being cheated on, neglected, sometimes beaten. And as I listened it became clear to me that for these three women it almost seemed as if they were in a contest to see who suffered the most. As if their experiences are bragging rights.

And typically they each exclaimed "I just want a man to treat me right."

I bit my tongue and didn't say what I thought about it. I felt like telling them "then pick better men!"

It seems to me that despite the progress of the feminist movement, and the more enlightened males, that in the end there will always remain a serious disconnect between men and women. That no matter how far both sides come along many simply just won't understand each other. And worse still...women and men alike are so good at deceiving themselves. Those three women had bad men. Probably had a history of bad men. Probably still do. Each time telling themselves he's the right guy. The same for men. While most of are dogs many a man has found himself with a woman who's a dog as well.

I think we need a new movement. There's never been a "manism" movement and we don't need one. We've have a feminism movement which is has made progress for women. But we need a "togetherism" movement. Men can become left behind if its just the feminists moving ahead. And we see that the feminist movement has forced certain changes on the males. But there's nobody trying to make it so both can move forward together.

The feelingss you mention are a problem, and I have a lot of sympathy.The way some women carry on you would think they expect the 'battle of the sexes' to turn into a genuine hot war at any tim. A growing sense of emasculation in western societies has been noted and commented on. I had to wince a few years ago when a study into domestic violence found a growing sense of disempowerment amongst men within their own family was contributing strongly to it. The response from the then Labour government? Try and formulate a policy to disempower men more.

Of course part of the solution is to treat relationships as partnerships rather than a power struggle. Sadly both men and women seem equally bad at that.

Now while I do feel sympathy and feel men should still be allowed to be men (and women women, hence the feminism thing) these feelings are part of an adjustment that men will have to make.

Another thing I particularly hate is the masculinisation or neutralisation of femininity. Actor instead of actress, chairperson instead of chairwoman, mens clothing becoming standard street fashion. I wear pretty dresses and celebrate my femininity, it doesn't mean I'm not a feminist.


Unfortunately there are a lot of feminists who are worthy of the term. Turning women's right to equality into a crusade for vengeance could ultimately cost us what we have achieved so far. It is a testament to the quality of our menfolk that we have achieved so much in the past century with what I would deem only acceptable opposition, (aside from the crackdowns on the Suffragettes) and in many cases a great deal of masculine support.

[eldargal]

It is offensive, hence the problem. I would dispute that it doesn't work like that, though, in general it does. The fact that most women don't even realise this is what feminism is at its core, and that such progress had been made to achieving these goals is a testament to the fact these core values of feminism have actually been accpeted by society.

You are absolutely right about the requirements issue. The rumours that the physical requirements for entry into teh armed forces have been lowed to make it easier for women to gain entry are extremely damaging. It is one reason why I'm against this sort of 'affirmative action', by taking such actions you are implying that women, in fact, are not capable.

I can't see any issues with your version of feminism, Unfortunately it doesn't work like that, which is quite sad. I particularly find it offensive the women that object to doors being held for them, I would hold a door for anyone coming the other way/following me through it...

The frontline combat infantry is a difficult one, while personally anyone who meets the requirements should be allowed, without lowering them for women, which wouldn't be equality and would affect effectiveness, there are psychological factors to men's need to protect women which can't be overcome just by declaring equality...

But I suppose as long as she brings me my bacon sandvich I'm happy...

Phototoxin, I'm not particularly familiar with a pro-abortion lobby. There is a pro-choice lobhy and in Britain at least they treat abortion as a legitimate choice, though a last resort. Which is how it should be. Control over a woman's body and an organism dependent on it for survival (foetuses are, in fact, parasites in the literal sense) is a legitimate area of feminist interest. However it is very much not an issue I want to see come to dominate this thread as it is more about the core beliefs.

As to hitting a woman, if someone attacks you you have a right to defend yourself. However as most men will be stronger than the woman attacking them, the line between 'appropriate force' and 'bullying' grows quite thin. It is for the same reason that if a child came at you with a knife, beating them to a pulp would not be acceptable. A stronger person beating on a weaker one, regardless of provocation, tends to be viewed as bullying in. It is a complex issue though, in general I think it best to avoid violence as much as possible and if forced to it, aim to incapacitte rather than injure, wheter male or female.

[Grenadier]

Years ago my roomie in college was into boxing. And one night a girl who hanged out with us wanted someone to spar with. She was one of those tough chick types. And very attractive. My kind of gal. And I made a huge mistake that night. "I'll spar with you."

But when we got into it I found I couldn't hit her. She tried her best to get me to. All I'd do is try to block her punches. When I punched back I'd always pull them. Which only made her mad. And them my doom was upon me. She proceeded to pound me into the ground with a dizzying flurry of punches. Yep...I got my *** kicked by a girl. And to rub salt in my wounds my performance led her to rejecting my advances and so I never got to go out with her. Maybe it was a Red Sonja kind of thing going on.

But I'm proud that I never hit her back!

[Emerald Rose Widow]

Another thing I particularly hate is the masculinisation or neutralisation of femininity. Actor instead of actress, chairperson instead of chairwoman, mens clothing becoming standard street fashion. I wear pretty dresses and celebrate my femininity, it doesn't mean I'm not a feminist.
.

This bothers me a lot, I like to wear frills and lace, puffy dresses and all those pretty things. I am a very feminine woman, and that is my bloody choice. Thats the whole point is the freedom to choose your destiny, and yet they want to tell me what I should do as a feminist? Frell you you psycho women in need of anger management. I swear every time I hear a super-feminist saying the words "The Patriarchy" I wanna strangle them with the hem of my frilly dress.....but of course I could not do that as it would show off my bloomers and that would immodest -giggles-

[eldargal]

Yes I've found that the only boys who are willing to spar with me properly, at least when it comes to unarmed combat, are my brothers. It is a bit annoying to have men hold back when you know you could probably beat them anyway. I'm sure you can understand why she was angry though, it is the implication that she couldn't handle you not holding back. But when it comes down to it, men not hitting women is not something that should ever be complained about. Not until society has integrated feminism to the point domestic violence, and other forms of violence against women, isn't rampant.


Emerald, you know what is even better than 'the Patriarchy'? 'The masculine-industrial complex', I swear the first time I heard that (I really hope it isn't widespread) if I hadn't been laughing so hard I would have slapped the little bint (it's ok when a girl does it.).

[Grenadier]

I can understand why she got mad at me. Who knows though, maybe if I hit back we would have wound up dating. The Red Sonja effect. "Beat me in sparring and you can have me." I'll say this: if the girl didn't have on boxing gloves things would've been a lot worse for me. The lady packed a mean punch.

[DrLove42]

So i'm a Feminist. Awesome

The thing that really got me recently was a proposed government bill that all boards of companies must have x% of them to be women. No such protection the other eway round, but a law that said women must be present.

The way I always look at it is that Sexism (and Racism) will not cease to exist until positive sexism and racism is abolished.;
- Assault a white man. You get charged with assault. Assault a black/gay man. Get charged with racial assault and get more punishment
- Two applicants for a job. One man, one woman. Hire the woman, no problem. Hire the man, get sued for sexual discrimination

[Grenadier]

I somewhat agree with you. Only I'm more pessimistic and think such things always exist as they're part of human nature.

But there is backwards angle to racism or sexism. Especially here in the U.S. And not many people will discuss it because it invariably ends up with someone calling them a racist.

The word racist is used as a weapon in America. There are some, for example, who'll call anyone who doesn't support Obama a racist. But this is merely a cheap tactic to avoid discussing his policies and such. Janine Garafolo was very bad for doing this. You have race baiters and race hustlers as well. And then there's this thing some call "white liberal guilt." To be honest I don't know too much about that though.

The hate crimes are discriminatory in themselves actually. Someone explained to me they were created to combat the discrimination in the courts where a minority victim didn't get fairness. The problem is though hate crimes are intended to make things better for very specific minorities. Chiefly, Muslims, GLBT members, and blacks. They treat the crime differently based on the minority. Beat up a gay man or beat up a straight man and the crime itself is identical. But the gay man gets better treatment in the court and so his assailant is going to get a stiffer punishment than the straight man's assailant.

It seems it is all about the motivation behind the crime. Hate. So what? I say if you assault anyone or murder anyone, regardless of who they are, it's always about hate. Beat up a straight guy and it's a hateful act in my opinion. And no different than beating up a gay fellow. So to me these hate crimes are thoroughly unfair. Especially since the same crime and same motivation can make another person a victim. If someone in America decided they despise Christians and then murdered one for being who they are it will not be seen as a hate crime. If a black man killed a white man it'll never be a hate crime. Crimes should all be dealt with equally. Then there is criminalizing hate speech. While hate speech is vile it's still speech. To criminalize any form of speech in my opinion is to criminalize thought. And while some thought is reprehensible they're not criminal.

These hate crimes are not fair. And they're discriminatory.

Same with all the stuff designed to protect women from sexual harassment. There's no protections for men in this regard.

The sad thing is all of these things are well intended. Well meaning people fought for these things to address serious social concerns. Hate crimes, political correctness, anti-sexual harassment laws, etc mean well. But they have some flaws which don't serve society as a whole...only a segment of the society. We need to move on from this and make it so they're fair and serve everyone equally.

So i'm a Feminist. Awesome

The thing that really got me recently was a proposed government bill that all boards of companies must have x% of them to be women. No such protection the other eway round, but a law that said women must be present.

The way I always look at it is that Sexism (and Racism) will not cease to exist until positive sexism and racism is abolished.;
- Assault a white man. You get charged with assault. Assault a black/gay man. Get charged with racial assault and get more punishment
- Two applicants for a job. One man, one woman. Hire the woman, no problem. Hire the man, get sued for sexual discrimination