2kpt Space Wolves competetive list advice

[Fowlplaychiken]

pdeleir, good criticisms.

1) I will consider dropping teh 5+ invuln. I figured he can only cast one power per turn anyway and so I would usually be casting JOTW, unless my squad was out in the open and needed the cover save, or a nearby squad.

2) second melta is free. First would cost 5pts. Thus, melta + flamer is free. I agree about MOTW, will try to fit it in. Its true about the sweeping advance. However, most opponents will get wiped out by that squad during the first round of combat. A unit that survives and flee's only has a moderate chance of getting far enough away that consolidation dosent keep the squad within 6 inches. For the super inexpensive guy with 2+ save, 5+ invuln (great wound soak) and a power sword/storm bolter, all for 15pts, its worth it IMO. However, if I wanted to run a redeemer (which I like way better and had originally but dropped due to squad size) then I would have to agree about ditching him. As for moving the Rp to another squad, I hesitate only because he is very fragile. I will give it a try however.

3) done, tho I kept teh termi with cyclone launcher in this squad.

4) 15 man squad in a crusader is a TON of points. 10 man in rhino is fine for me. Can shield the LR with ragnar and disembark after a turn of movement to do their assault. Cant move/assault from rhino, true, but thats what ragnars uber squad is for

5) done

6)For normal devastators I would agree, but Long Fangs can split fire; Thus the cheapie heavy bolter guys act as wound soaks and lay fire on infantry or light vehicles while the lascannons split fire and pew pew priority targets (i.e. threats to ragnar)

7) Swapped back to redeemer. I have one in my sallies and loev it to death. Had a crusader for the larger capacity.

[Fowlplaychiken]

fixed tweaked list

HQ:
Ragnar Blackmanemounted in LR)
Total: 240pts

Rune Priest: (Jaws of the World Wolf, Living Lightning) (mounted in GH Squad 2 Drop Pod)
Total: 100pts

TROOPS:
Grey Hunters Pack 1 (x10)(mounted in LR)
1x flamer
1x meltagun
Power Weapon
Mark of the Wolf
Total: 180pts

Gray Hunter Pack 2 (x7)
1x Meltagun
Power Weapon
Mark of the Wolf
Drop pod
Total: 175pts

Blood Claw Pack 1 (x9)
meltagun
Power Weapon
Rhino
Total: 190pts

Blood Claw Pack 2 (x9)
meltagun
Power Weapon
Rhino
Total: 190pts

ELITES:
Wolf Scouts Pack (x7)
Meltagun
Power Weapon x2
Total: 145pts

Wolf Guard Pack (x5): 90pts
1x Power Fist (GH Pack 1 LR)
1x Power fist, combi melta: (GH Pack 2)
1x Power fist, combi melta (Blood claw pack 1)
1x Power fist, combi melta (Blood Claw pack 2)
1x Power Fist (Scout pack 1)
Total: 205pts

HEAVY SUPPORT:

Long Fang Squad 1 (x6)
3x Heavy Bolte
2x Lascannon
Total: 155pts

Long Fang Squad 2 (x6)
3x Heavy Bolter
2x Lascannon
Total: 155pts

Land Raider Redeemer
Multi Melta
Extra Armor
Total: 265pts

GRAND TOTAL: 2000pts

[mkerr]

@Fowlplaychiken: I haven't gone over everyone's advise, so I apologize in advance if I'm covering old territory with my comments. It looks like the army list has improved a lot, so it must have been good.

I'm going to give you some feedback based on my games. I've actually played a couple of lists very similar to this one.

1. Ragnar is awesome, but he's going to draw a crazy amount of fire. The extra attacks are really devastating!

2. I wouldn't put JoWW and Living Lightning on the same Rune Priest. I wouldn't put Living Lightning on a Rune Priest without a Choose of the Slain -- consider Tempest's Wrath instead.

3. Your Grey Hunter's pack is exactly the one I'm playing now. Power Weapon and Mark of the Wulfen.

4. I've dropped Blood Claws from my army completely. The +2A on the charge is nice, but I'd rather have a Bolter, WS4 and Mark of the Wulfen. Heck, MotW alone can generate as many extra attacks as Reckless Charge.

5. Work a MotW into the Wolf Scouts pack.

6. You are sinking a ton of points into your Wolf Guard. Personally, I don't think you'll need this much S8 but your local gaming area may be different than mine (I find that lots of Meltaguns and some Long Fangs shots is enough for me). So I'm trying out Wolf Claws (or Mark of the Wulfen + Combi-melta) on my Wolf Guard. I suspect that in the long run MotW + Combi-melta is going to win out.

7. I'm using the same Long Fangs build out in most of my games, although I tried out 3 ML + 2 LC a couple of days ago on one of my LF packs and liked that one as well. I'll probably settle on 3 HB + 2 LC for the long haul.

8. I'm using a Crusader in my Ragnar armr (for the extra seats), but I'd really like to hear how the Redeemer works.

All in all, I think it's a great list. Decent amount of anti-tank, nice mobility, the ability to concentrate your forces, the ability to grab far objectives, and a fantastic punch in close combat.

I can't wait to hear how it works!

-mkerr

[Fowlplaychiken]

Thanks for the opinion Mker. I will take a look at the dex when I get home and consider what you said about the RP special abilities. As for the blood claws, its true that with MOTF you can sometimes get nearly as many attacks, but on average your going to get 3 attacks + 1 + 1 on the charge, so 5 attacks. Thats one more than a Bloodclaw (but with rending). 9 Blood Claws on the charge are getting 4 attacks each, which is as many as a Wolfguard squad. true, WS3 and no bolter an be an irritant, but so far ive been OK with it.

As for the powerfists, every squad absolutely needs one in 5th edition. Too many mechanized armies and monstrous creatures running around. I originally had a single wolf claw on each rather than fists but I found the points spent did not justify it. Wolf claw costs almost as much as a fist. No extra attack unless you take two (which costs a fortune) so same attack profile as the fist. Plenty of guys in the squad to soak wounds so the fists initiative shouldnt be an issue. Wolf claw hits on 4's, wounds on 4's on average, with rerolls for one profile. Power fist hits on 4's wounds on 2s. Wounds on average is the same, but the powefist can cause instant death and threaten walkers/monstrous creatures. As things stand now, each squad has at least one power weapon and one power fist. Each grey hunter squad, and the scout squad, has additional power weapons. Works out well I think.

I may drop the 3 combi melta's for a MOTW on the scouts.

I ,3 longfangs too. 155points for 2 lascannon and 3 heavy bolter. Compare that to any other heavy support choice (say, a predator) and its very point efficient.

I had a crusader originally but really like the redeemer in my Sally army and, while the extra transport cap was nice, by putting the rune priest in a seperate squad with the drop pod guys, I can fit what I need in the redeemer. I also save 10 pts, which is great because this list is very tight.

[Chumbalaya]

The only really bad units in the SW book are Blood Claws and Wolf Scouts, everything else is pretty good or at least serviceable.

Latest iteration looks improved, though putting meltas on Blood Claws is a no-no because of BS3. They also really shouldn't be in Rhinos since they can't charge upon exiting. That's part of what makes BCs bad, they require a Land Raider (basically doubling the cost of the unit) and Wolf Guard to get any mileage out of them.

Dropping your super sweet Priest turn 1 is going to get him dead. I'd sit him back with the Fangs and use Lightning and the DS/jump pack murder power, also a Chooser.

4 lascannons isn't sufficient AT at range, BC meltas are crap and GH suicide meltas are one-hit wonders, so you'll need some more tank busting. MM/HF Speeders, MM Dreads, and so on would help with heavy armor, autocannons or missile launchers in sufficient numbers can help knock out light armor.

[Fowlplaychiken]

Think I am going to switch the melta back to flame ron the blood claws and get a second melta in the command squad with the saved points. As for BC in rhino, ive played salamanders for a significant amount of time. I regularly manage to charge the enemy with my sallies and then launch an assault. It simply requires forethought. yes, it sucks that I cant scateboard 12 inches, disembark 2, and assault 6; I must move forward 12 inches and disembark 2, move 6, assault 6 the next turn. However, with fun smoke launchers and the fact that my opponent has plenty to shoot at more important than two rhinos full of blood claws, I generally believe I will have this opportunity. I am going to give the BC a try and if they dont work out, can easily drop them for more GH.

As for the scouts, I have to say your just flat wrong. Also, im going to throw a combi melta in the scout squad with the 5pts saved by dropping the second BC melta.

The rune priest/drop pod squad is not a suicide squad. My salamanders run a "suicide" ironclad w/ hf in a drop pod to fall first turn, kill a high priority target, soak fire, and promptly die:-p This squad is not that. Drop pod GH + scouts come in turn one and (hopefully) 2 to support vulkan and the BC as they arrive; longfangs provide cover fire and try to kill anything that may threaten vulkan. I have a spare Venerable dread from forgeworld lying around and may try to work it in but tbh, I like having 4 troops squads in a 2kpt game.

[Chumbalaya]

I'll say this, if your opponents let your Blood Claws make it into combat on foot, they're doing it wrong. 10 marines in the open aren't that hard to kill.

Scouts are another noob-catcher unit. It's not a secret that they're coming, so your opponent should be able to prepare for it. Staying outside melta/charge range, smoking up, using cover, having cheap infantry blocking assaults, blocking up the board so you can't get across parts of it, and so on. They can do damage, but you're basically banking on your opponent being an idiot (or very forgetful)

Drop Pod comes in turn 1, you aren't in assault yet so they get vaped as the only infantry on the board besides Long Fangs. If GH had any appreciable firepower at range, like Tactical Marines do, it would be fine to drop them. As is, they're a pretty easy target and knocks out your Rune Priest rather quickly.

[Fowlplaychiken]

Gh have the same/more ranged firepower coming out of a pod than marines do. 2 assault weapons rather than one and just as many overall weapons.

I cant believe you dont put assault style squads in rhino when you play chaos or marines. I mean, yea, sure, a landraider is always better...and jump packs too, tho they are vulnerable to enemy fire that way. But, seriously. Average table you start 24 inches apart. unless the BC's rides get popped (does happen, tho smoke and using terrain helps, and there are plenty of more important targets to shoot) they will generally make it intact....

deploy:rhinos starts 12 inches onto the table or 24 inches from the enemy depending on deployment
turn 1: rhinos moves forward 12 inches, screening the landraider and using cover if possible. If not, smoke
turn 2: troops disembark 2 inches, move 6, assault 6. If not possible, rhinos move forward further and gets into some trees or behind cover. If also not possible, Oh well; so long as you dont place your rhino like an idiot the troops wont get assaulted if the rhinos get popped (still unlikely since ragnar and a redeemer is coming full of hate and pain, and a GH squad and scout squad are already arrived). Besides, even if somehow you messed up, rhino gets popped, and you get assaulted; you get counterattack and will strike first due to rhino wreck/crater, or simultaneously at worse if they have frag grenades.

Thus, turn 2-3 your into combat and wont often get shot at before hand.

also, saying that space wolf scouts are **** is pure silliness. Coming in from any table edge with a meltagun, full space marine stats (with only a 4+ save, albiet), 2 power swords, a powerfist, and the ability to assault that same turn...your very comments prove the usefulness of it. You would significantly modify your tactics to counter the scouts. that in themselves serves a purpose. The moment you start doing what your opponent wants and expects you to do, you have lost.

Honestly chumb, if you have vassal, maybe we should play a game. Either your so much better than me that I can not comprehend 80% of your criticism as valid, or your so much worse than me that your views on tactics and the space wolves in general are way off. I admit, some of what you say has merit. But decrying half the wolves codex as **** and worthless seems a bit hasty to me. I see diamonds in the rough where you see only coal. The only thing I can think of is our playstyles are so drastically different that we will never see eye to eye.

[Fowlplaychiken]

List tweaked very slightly.

HQ:
Ragnar Blackmane (mounted in LR)
Total: 240pts

Rune Priest: (Jaws of the World Wolf,some other psychic power) (mounted in GH Squad 2 Drop Pod)
Total: 100pts

What should the second power be? One one hand, living lightning would be good for popping transports to get some bodies for ragnar and the blood claws to kill. On the other hand, storm caller will give the GH squad and my runepriest a 5+ cover save, so that if the drop pod dosent provide all the cover I need im still not super in the open. THis unit wont be deploying in the midst of an enemy army, however, so not sure its needed. Murderous hurricane would be good, since it causes an enemy unit to more or less get fired on by 1-2 imperial guardsman units:-p further, they are then treating all terrain as difficult and dangerous. However, its weak and wont likely do much. Finally, tempests wrath would seem good, except deep striking units treat difficult terrain as dangerous anyway? So whats the point?

TROOPS:
Grey Hunters Pack 1 (x10): 150pts (mounted in LR)
2x meltagun
Power Weapon
Mark of the Wolf
Total: 185pts

Gray Hunter Pack 2 (x7)
1x Meltagun
Power Weapon
Mark of the Wolf
Drop pod
Total: 175pts

Blood Claw Pack 1 (x9)
flamer: free
Power Weapon
Rhino
Total: 185pts

Blood Claw Pack 2 (x9)
flamer
Power Weapon
Rhino
Total: 185pts

ELITES:
Wolf Scouts Pack (x7)
Meltagun
Power Weapon x2
Total: 145pts

Wolf Guard Pack (x5)
1x Power Fist (GH Pack 1 LR)
1x Terminator Armor, Power fist (GH Pack 2)
1x Power fist combi melta (Blood claw pack 1)
1x Power fist combi melta (Blood Claw pack 2)
1x Power Fist, combi melta (Scout pack 1)
Total: 210pts

HEAVY SUPPORT:

Long Fang Squad 1 (x6)
3x Heavy Bolter
2x Lascannon
Total: 155pts

Long Fang Squad 2 (x6)
3x Heavy Bolter
2x Lascannon
Total: 155pts

Land Raider Redeemer
Multi Melta
Extra Armor
Total: 265pts

GRAND TOTAL: 2000pts

[Chumbalaya]

Gh have the same/more ranged firepower coming out of a pod than marines do. 2 assault weapons rather than one and just as many overall weapons.

It's more about range. A Rhino mounted Tac Squad has a multi-melta, so it is able to threaten vehicles up to 24", making it easier to camp on an objective and support your army. Meltas are fairly short ranged and force you into getting close, which would be bad with a unit carrying your super awesome Rune Priest.

I cant believe you dont put assault style squads in rhino when you play chaos or marines. I mean, yea, sure, a landraider is always better...and jump packs too, tho they are vulnerable to enemy fire that way. But, seriously. Average table you start 24 inches apart. unless the BC's rides get popped (does happen, tho smoke and using terrain helps, and there are plenty of more important targets to shoot) they will generally make it intact....

I used to, back when it was good (3rd ed Rhino Rush ). Nowadays, being exposed for a turn like that is asking for trouble, especially against a mech army. You can start 24" apart at least, your opponent has 12" of DZ to work within. I would expect BCs to get in assault at the earliest, provided your opponent has obliged you by letting his units sit still for a turn while you're knocking on his door.

deploy:rhinos starts 12 inches onto the table or 24 inches from the enemy depending on deployment
turn 1: rhinos moves forward 12 inches, screening the landraider and using cover if possible. If not, smoke
turn 2: troops disembark 2 inches, move 6, assault 6. If not possible, rhinos move forward further and gets into some trees or behind cover. If also not possible, Oh well; so long as you dont place your rhino like an idiot the troops wont get assaulted if the rhinos get popped (still unlikely since ragnar and a redeemer is coming full of hate and pain, and a GH squad and scout squad are already arrived). Besides, even if somehow you messed up, rhino gets popped, and you get assaulted; you get counterattack and will strike first due to rhino wreck/crater, or simultaneously at worse if they have frag grenades.

They can deploy further back, focus on the GH and other real threats before working over the BCs when they decide to show up. Feeding them bait is also an option, or just smashing them with a superior assault unit (then WS3 hurts bad).

also, saying that space wolf scouts are **** is pure silliness. Coming in from any table edge with a meltagun, full space marine stats (with only a 4+ save, albiet), 2 power swords, a powerfist, and the ability to assault that same turn...your very comments prove the usefulness of it. You would significantly modify your tactics to counter the scouts. that in themselves serves a purpose. The moment you start doing what your opponent wants and expects you to do, you have lost.

It's not that difficult to counter them and maintain your plans, quite easy for a mech army. My IG for example have plenty of spare bodies to block up board edge while still firing their autocannons or they all mount up and get where they need to be with meltas, Demolisher cannons, flamers, and so on. Wolf Scouts work against gunlines, and gunlines are bad. They look neat on paper, but their slowness, unreliability, and the ease at which they are countered puts them in the bin for me. If they could outflank a cyclone WG termie then we may have some fun with them

Honestly chumb, if you have vassal, maybe we should play a game. Either your so much better than me that I can not comprehend 80% of your criticism as valid, or your so much worse than me that your views on tactics and the space wolves in general are way off. I admit, some of what you say has merit. But decrying half the wolves codex as **** and worthless seems a bit hasty to me. I see diamonds in the rough where you see only coal. The only thing I can think of is our playstyles are so drastically different that we will never see eye to eye.

I apologize if I was being unclear, I hope I have explained myself adequately. I never really got into vassal, it just didn't feel the same, I though it got C&D'd, but I'd be happy to try it out. I just play a lot with really competitive armies and a like-minded group so I can get lots of practice in with every army and figure out what works and what doesn't. I didn't say half the wolf book was bad, quite the opposite, just BCs and wolf scouts and Ulrik are bleh, everything else has its uses. Anything can work in a friendly game, but I'm more into competitive gaming so I pretty much filter out everything beyond it. Besides, people don't need advice on playing friendlies