2kpt Space Wolves competetive list advice

[Fowlplaychiken]

No worries mate, good criticism, there. Yes, IG have more tanks and bodies than god, and nothing short of an army of meltaweapons can really counter them, other than assaulting (assault hurts tank batallions bad due to allocation). However, vs that same IG army, the rhinos and dudes inside are doomed anyway and so a MM is worthless. Further, MM's force assault troops to stay stationary. MM in each tac squad is great for my shootey salamanders. Its bad for the close combat, up close and hack and slash space wolves. Best defense for wolves against 6 pie plates and more troops than god is to get into close combat quickly and stay there.

as for an opponent deploying further back, this is true. All you can do is use intervening terrain, scouts coming on with melta from any table edge long or short, and the drop pod to try and break up enemy units and gain time for the bulk of the army to arrive. As for lining a table edge so that the scouts cant come on...they can come on from long or short edge. Even strining guardsman (most numerous infantry unit in the game) out one by one so that theres no room for a model to pass through, it would be difficult to cover the long and short table edges, if neccessary, the drop pod can clear one strung out platoon first turn in order to make room for the scouts second turn. However, I find it unlikely that even 80 guardsman could cover 2 full table edges of a 6"4 board.

Anyway, in essence, if I want to shoot my enemy to death, I would take more GH. However, thats what my sallies are for:-p

[mkerr]

I prefer Grey Hunters over Blood Claws, but Blood Claws can be fun. In my test games with BCs, I found myself missing the Bolter and missing the +2A on counter-attack. My BCs were devastating when everything worked PERFECTLY, but my GHs were solid even when things didn't go my way.

Latest iteration looks improved, though putting meltas on Blood Claws is a no-no because of BS3.

I wouldn't lose a lot of sleep over a 5pt BS3 Meltagun. A gun that's 17% less reliable than the lauded Space Marine version (but costs 50% less) isn't a bad deal. I'm finding that I almost never need the flamer, but I have needed the meltagun from time to time -- so I'm probably sticking with the meltagun (although I fixed the BS3 thing by moving to GHs).

Dropping your super sweet Priest turn 1 is going to get him dead. I'd sit him back with the Fangs and use Lightning and the DS/jump pack murder power, also a Chooser.

I've been pretty happy with both my long-range and my drop pod Rune Priests. In my last game, I tried out Murderous Hurricane and Tempest's Wrath (with Master of Runes) on my drop pod Rune Priest and both powers were awesome. I have found myself being a bit too agressive with them, but I've only lost them early from Runes of Warding.

I'm probably going to keep running two Rune Priests over the next few weeks (including one in a drop pod).

4 lascannons isn't sufficient AT at range, BC meltas are crap and GH suicide meltas are one-hit wonders, so you'll need some more tank busting. MM/HF Speeders, MM Dreads, and so on would help with heavy armor, autocannons or missile launchers in sufficient numbers can help knock out light armor.

I'm not having any problems at all with light armor (and my last list -- against mostly mech Eldar -- had more meltaguns but a lot fewer power fists than the one we're talking about). This is really a judgement call based on your local area. There's a decent amount of mechanized units in Austin, but not so much that I can't assault when I want to. You don't have to destroy every light tank on turn 1, you just need enough destroyed by turn 2 that you can feed them to Ragnar.

I'll say this, if your opponents let your Blood Claws make it into combat on foot, they're doing it wrong. 10 marines in the open aren't that hard to kill.

Both of my Rhino-based Blood Claws units made it into close combat a turn after Ragnar. Why? Because my opponent focused all of his energy trying to kill Ragnar's Land Raider instead of wiping out the Blood Claws. It's really tough to divert your shooting to deal with the unit that's going to assault you the turn AFTER Ragnar gets there.

Scouts are another noob-catcher unit. It's not a secret that they're coming, so your opponent should be able to prepare for it. Staying outside melta/charge range, smoking up, using cover, having cheap infantry blocking assaults, blocking up the board so you can't get across parts of it, and so on. They can do damage, but you're basically banking on your opponent being an idiot (or very forgetful)

I couldn't disagree more. Wolf Scouts are fantastic -- mainly because of what they "could" do. A real experienced player will most likely ignore Wolf Scouts instead of anything you list above. But your reactions are exactly what I'd expect from most players. Something like this:

a. My opponent is going to assume they are coming in from their board edge 100% of the time and change his deployment and movement to prepare for it (even though 1/3rd of the time, they outflank normally).

b. To prepare for them, he is going to 1) deploy forward (toward my advancing army -- awesome), 2) deploy wide (speading his forces out to deal with 180pts of models -- awesome) or 3) pile up units on his objective (instead of supporting his advance -- awesome).

c. Most importantly, my opponent is changing the way he normally plays his army. He's moving out of his comfort zone and modifying his gameplan just because I have one unit that can come in on his board edge. That's fantastic!

Wolf Scouts are worth it at all levels of play (especially considering 1/3rd of the games are C&C).

If GH had any appreciable firepower at range, like Tactical Marines do, it would be fine to drop them. As is, they're a pretty easy target and knocks out your Rune Priest rather quickly.

There's no difference in "firepower" between the Grey Hunters and Tactical Marines. If anything the Grey Hunters have a touch more. The Space Marines fire 1 special weapon, 7 bolters, 1 bolt pistol (the MM marine) and potentially a combi-weapon. The Grey Hunters have 1 special weapon, 7 bolters, potentially a combi-weapon and whatever the IC has (in this case JotWW or Murderous Hurricane).

I've dropped a Rune Priest in a Drop Pod in my last three games and haven't had my Rune Priest "knocked out" quickly. 10 Marines aren't easy to knock out when the rest of your army is advancing on them.

I really like the Ragnar"pressure cooker" build. You have Ragnar blazing at you in a Land Raider while 2 drop pods land in your backfield (where Ragnar is heading). Your short and long range shooting try to make a mess of the location directly in front of Ragnar so he can assault on turn 2. Your Rhinos move up as well (providing cover) and units that will join the fight on turn 3.

Your opponent has to focus on the Land Raider -- generally without the help of any melta weapons (because that's what you shot at on your first turn). Even an experienced player is going to be tempted to waste some shots on a Landraider with a gazillion attacks on the other side of that assault ramp.

There's something delicious about forcing your opponent to play YOUR way.

My IG for example have plenty of spare bodies to block up board edge while still firing their autocannons or they all mount up and get where they need to be with meltas, Demolisher cannons, flamers, and so on. Wolf Scouts work against gunlines, and gunlines are bad.

People talk a lot about trying to spread out along the board edge, but I've only seen it done twice in tournaments (and both guys got their a$$es handed to them). It's almost impossible to maintain a line of T3 5+ dudes spread 2" apart for 2-3 turns.

I haven't been playing Wolf Guard in my most recent lists (trying out new units), but they were pretty effective in the two games I played (against very competent players). In both games, they supported drop pod Grey Hunters (or drop pod Dreadnoughts) turning the tide in close combats.

More importantly, they are a different type of unit. Most players won't get to play or play against a unit that can come in the opposing board edge. So take them from time to time because they are fun and kinda cool.

I just play a lot with really competitive armies and a like-minded group so I can get lots of practice in with every army and figure out what works and what doesn't.

You've had a lot of practice with or against the new Space Wolves? We had the codex a week before the stores got the "black box" and I've only managed to get in a half dozen games with them. I'm still learning what works and what doesn't in the list -- two weeks ago, I was still taking Blood Claws for goodness sake!

We also tend to forget how much of 40K is regional. I'm used to building armies to deal with the good players in my neck of the woods (and the armies I expect to find at major tournaments -- more based on WHO is playing them than WHAT they are playing).

In Austin, I'm still not feeling the need to put a crazy amount of anti-tank in my army (or a crazy amount of mechanized units) to win games yet -- and I'd wager that Austin is one of the most competitive 40K communities in the world. The amount of mechanized IG is definitely trending up, but Chaos and Space Marines haven't changed that much in the last six months. But I'm still seeing competitive Tyranid, Ork and Daemon armies -- as well as some fantastic non-mechanized IG.

So my advice is to decide at what level you want to compete with the armies around you. Build a list that works well in the environment, but don't build it to deal with a specific opponent (or type of opponent). Add some units that you love and some elements that will be fun for you (and your opponent). That will leave you with an army that you'll want to play.

I've tried a ton of different builds from the new Space Wolves codex and I haven't been disappointed yet. It definitely doesn't have the depth of the IG or SM codices, but there's still room for some fun armies.

-- mkerr

[Fowlplaychiken]

I prefer Grey Hunters over Blood Claws, but Blood Claws can be fun. In my test games with BCs, I found myself missing the Bolter and missing the +2A on counter-attack. My BCs were devastating when everything worked PERFECTLY, but my GHs were solid even when things didn't go my way.



I wouldn't lose a lot of sleep over a 5pt BS3 Meltagun. A gun that's 17% less reliable than the lauded Space Marine version (but costs 50% less) isn't a bad deal. I'm finding that I almost never need the flamer, but I have needed the meltagun from time to time -- so I'm probably sticking with the meltagun (although I fixed the BS3 thing by moving to GHs).



I've been pretty happy with both my long-range and my drop pod Rune Priests. In my last game, I tried out Murderous Hurricane and Tempest's Wrath (with Master of Runes) on my drop pod Rune Priest and both powers were awesome. I have found myself being a bit too agressive with them, but I've only lost them early from Runes of Warding.

I'm probably going to keep running two Rune Priests over the next few weeks (including one in a drop pod).



I'm not having any problems at all with light armor (and my last list -- against mostly mech Eldar -- had more meltaguns but a lot fewer power fists than the one we're talking about). This is really a judgement call based on your local area. There's a decent amount of mechanized units in Austin, but not so much that I can't assault when I want to. You don't have to destroy every light tank on turn 1, you just need enough destroyed by turn 2 that you can feed them to Ragnar.



Both of my Rhino-based Blood Claws units made it into close combat a turn after Ragnar. Why? Because my opponent focused all of his energy trying to kill Ragnar's Land Raider instead of wiping out the Blood Claws. It's really tough to divert your shooting to deal with the unit that's going to assault you the turn AFTER Ragnar gets there.



I couldn't disagree more. Wolf Scouts are fantastic -- mainly because of what they "could" do. A real experienced player will most likely ignore Wolf Scouts instead of anything you list above. But your reactions are exactly what I'd expect from most players. Something like this:

a. My opponent is going to assume they are coming in from their board edge 100% of the time and change his deployment and movement to prepare for it (even though 1/3rd of the time, they outflank normally).

b. To prepare for them, he is going to 1) deploy forward (toward my advancing army -- awesome), 2) deploy wide (speading his forces out to deal with 180pts of models -- awesome) or 3) pile up units on his objective (instead of supporting his advance -- awesome).

c. Most importantly, my opponent is changing the way he normally plays his army. He's moving out of his comfort zone and modifying his gameplan just because I have one unit that can come in on his board edge. That's fantastic!

Wolf Scouts are worth it at all levels of play (especially considering 1/3rd of the games are C&C).



There's no difference in "firepower" between the Grey Hunters and Tactical Marines. If anything the Grey Hunters have a touch more. The Space Marines fire 1 special weapon, 7 bolters, 1 bolt pistol (the MM marine) and potentially a combi-weapon. The Grey Hunters have 1 special weapon, 7 bolters, potentially a combi-weapon and whatever the IC has (in this case JotWW or Murderous Hurricane).

I've dropped a Rune Priest in a Drop Pod in my last three games and haven't had my Rune Priest "knocked out" quickly. 10 Marines aren't easy to knock out when the rest of your army is advancing on them.

I really like the Ragnar"pressure cooker" build. You have Ragnar blazing at you in a Land Raider while 2 drop pods land in your backfield (where Ragnar is heading). Your short and long range shooting try to make a mess of the location directly in front of Ragnar so he can assault on turn 2. Your Rhinos move up as well (providing cover) and units that will join the fight on turn 3.

Your opponent has to focus on the Land Raider -- generally without the help of any melta weapons (because that's what you shot at on your first turn). Even an experienced player is going to be tempted to waste some shots on a Landraider with a gazillion attacks on the other side of that assault ramp.

There's something delicious about forcing your opponent to play YOUR way.



People talk a lot about trying to spread out along the board edge, but I've only seen it done twice in tournaments (and both guys got their a$$es handed to them). It's almost impossible to maintain a line of T3 5+ dudes spread 2" apart for 2-3 turns.

I haven't been playing Wolf Guard in my most recent lists (trying out new units), but they were pretty effective in the two games I played (against very competent players). In both games, they supported drop pod Grey Hunters (or drop pod Dreadnoughts) turning the tide in close combats.

More importantly, they are a different type of unit. Most players won't get to play or play against a unit that can come in the opposing board edge. So take them from time to time because they are fun and kinda cool.



You've had a lot of practice with or against the new Space Wolves? We had the codex a week before the stores got the "black box" and I've only managed to get in a half dozen games with them. I'm still learning what works and what doesn't in the list -- two weeks ago, I was still taking Blood Claws for goodness sake!

We also tend to forget how much of 40K is regional. I'm used to building armies to deal with the good players in my neck of the woods (and the armies I expect to find at major tournaments -- more based on WHO is playing them than WHAT they are playing).

In Austin, I'm still not feeling the need to put a crazy amount of anti-tank in my army (or a crazy amount of mechanized units) to win games yet -- and I'd wager that Austin is one of the most competitive 40K communities in the world. The amount of mechanized IG is definitely trending up, but Chaos and Space Marines haven't changed that much in the last six months. But I'm still seeing competitive Tyranid, Ork and Daemon armies -- as well as some fantastic non-mechanized IG.

So my advice is to decide at what level you want to compete with the armies around you. Build a list that works well in the environment, but don't build it to deal with a specific opponent (or type of opponent). Add some units that you love and some elements that will be fun for you (and your opponent). That will leave you with an army that you'll want to play.

Stuff you said about wolf scouts and tactics, making your opponent play your way, etc; exactly what I was trying to say. You said it better.
I've tried a ton of different builds from the new Space Wolves codex and I haven't been disappointed yet. It definitely doesn't have the depth of the IG or SM codices, but there's still room for some fun armies.

-- mkerr

Mkerr, I cant agree more with pretty much everything you have said, although I do have to point out that noone gets +2 attacks on counterattack:-p

everything else seems spot on. Ive switched the meltaguns back on the BC's and dropped the combi melta's on the BC's wolf guard body guard. Makes the total army AT = 6 meltagun, 1 MM, 4 lascannons. Also, powerfist in every squad. I have to agree with what you said about the blood claws; they generally get into cc the turn after ragnar, and get ignored because ragnars squad is just more of a threat. Power fist + power weapon + ragnar with power weapon + model with MOTW and normal guys = scary attack profile. I do agree that I should consider swapping the Blood Claws out in exchange for more Grey Hunters; I would have to drop all the combi weapons and lose a fist somewhere to make up points, possibly, or else run smaller than normal squads (9 man instead of 10, including wolf guard) but I could make it happen. Im going to skip with the Blood Claws for now, because thats the models I have. If they end up not pulling their weight, I will invest in further GH.

Thanks for the imput

[mkerr]

Mkerr, I cant agree more with pretty much everything you have said, although I do have to point out that noone gets +2 attacks on counterattack:-p

I meant that the BCs don't get their Berserk Charge bonus with counter-attack. So if they get charged, you are looking at +1A at best with their WS3. At this point in my test games, I'll only take BC-based units with a Wolf Priest (in my last game I had some fun with Skyclaws).

I can't wait to hear how it plays. My Ragnar test game was a ton of fun!

-- mkerr

[Fowlplaychiken]

No worries mkerr, misunderstood. I mean, GH and BC are the same in CC other than the reduced weapon skill of one of the BC, and the increased attack of 1 on the charge of the BC. I do agree that having bolter + bp + cc weapon makes GH more flexible, and that the ws4 is important. Probably they are better overall. However, im working with the models I have atm. Also, its cooler/fluffier to have 20 blood enraged guys charging the enemy at ragnars flanks:-D Im usually pretty careful to make sure that I get the charge and not my enemy, but of course GH are going to be more forgiving of mistakes.

Im at work so cant examine the dex, but why a wolf priest with the BC better than wolf priest with GH? I forget the wolf priests abilities, other than a 4+ crozius invuln.

[mkerr]

Im at work so cant examine the dex, but why a wolf priest with the BC better than wolf priest with GH? I forget the wolf priests abilities, other than a 4+ crozius invuln.

The Wolf Priest gives the unit Oath of War (Preferred Enemy against one "type" of unit -- infantry, monstrous creatures, etc.). So as long as the WP is alive and you are fighting your preferred enemy, you get to re-roll misses in close combat. That goes a long way to making the WS3 palatable.

-- mkerr

[Fowlplaychiken]

In order to fit two of them I would have to drop the rune priest. Of course, I would also drop two wolf guard (dont need one with a chaplain leading). Think its worth it? Would certainly enhance the killeyness of each squad significantly, especially on the charge, but at the same time, rune priest scares many people.

[mkerr]

In order to fit two of them I would have to drop the rune priest. Of course, I would also drop two wolf guard (dont need one with a chaplain leading). Think its worth it? Would certainly enhance the killeyness of each squad significantly, especially on the charge, but at the same time, rune priest scares many people.

Now you are getting into minor tweaks that really depend on your style of play. Personally, I put MotW in every squad that can take it. And I won't take a Claws-unit without a Wolf Priest.

-- mkerr

[Fowlplaychiken]

Yea, duno. List is solid as it stands..I have to drop the two MOTW, all combi weapons, the 2 BC Wolfguard, and the rune priest in order to field two wolfpriest to stick in each BC squad, and throw another guy in the drop pod to replace the loss of the rune priest (I hate understrength squads).

May keep it as it is, try the bc, and drop them later if they turn out fail.

[Fowlplaychiken]

After another test game with the most recent manifestation of this list in which I lost (If game had ended turn 5 or 7 I would have won/tied, but it ended turn 6 so lost by one KP to a skilled mostly- khorne demon army) I have redone the list a bit. Havent playtested the new manifestation yet but on a plus note, other than the priests I have all the models. Odd not to field any rune priest but I feel like, while they are good and scary, they are over rated against most enemies, and overhyped.

HQ:
Ragnar Blackmane (mounted in LR)
Total: 240pts

Wolf Priest 1 (in BC Pack1)
Total: 100pts

Wolf Priest 2 (In BC Pack 2)
Total: 100pts

TROOPS:
Grey Hunters Pack 1 (x10): 150pts (mounted in LR)
2x meltagun
MotW
Power Weapon
Total: 185pts

Gray Hunter Pack 2 (x8)
1x Meltagun
Power Weapon
Drop pod
Total: 175pts

Blood Claw Pack 1 (x8)
1x Meltagun
Power Weapon
Rhino
Total: 175pts

Blood Claw Pack 2 (x8)
1x Meltagun
Power Weapon
Rhino
Total: 175pts

ELITES:
Wolf Scouts Pack (x7)
Meltagun
Power Weapon x2
Total: 145pts

Wolf Guard Pack (x5): 90pts
1x Power Fist (GH Pack 1 LR)
1x Power Fist, combi melta (BC Pack 1)
1x Power Fist (BC Pack 2)
1x Terminator Armor, Power fist (GH Pack 2)
1x Power Fist, combi melta: (Scout pack 1)
Total: 205pts

Venerable Dreadnought: 165pts
Heavy flamer instead of SB
Multi Melta
Extra Armor
Wolftooth Necklace
Drop Pod
Total: 235pts

HEAVY SUPPORT:
Land Raider Redeemer
Multi Melta
Extra Armo
Total: 265pts

GRAND TOTAL: 2000pts