Thunderwolves, Release Dates, and You

[wittdooley]

The recent release of the very nice Thunderwolves kit from GW brough forth some responses that, quite frankly, I was a bit surprised by: anger and indifference. Here GW was, releasing a really nice kit for an unreleased model in codex that is still very competitive and popular, and the majority of what I read was along the lines of, "too little, too late."

"Too little, too late?" Really? The models while certainly late to the party, are a fantastic addition to the line. They better fit aesthetically with the rest of the models (I'm considering selling my Mr. Dandy Models or trading for a box of the new Thunderwolves because they 'fit' better), are easy to put together, and are reasonably priced for the size and diversity of the models included. To hear someone say, "I'd rather GW just not have done one" or "that's stupid, they already lost all the money they could have made" was curious statements in my eyes. I'd much rather have a late model from GW that better fits with the rest of my army than a 3rd party one (I don't buy a ton of Scibor models for this very reason) that isn't quite right, even if that means it's late.

Which brings me to the crux of the question: why is this same anger at a model being released so far after the army book seemingly limited to GW? In particular, why don't we see the same complaints about Privateer, particularly in regards to their Wrath releases? Let me preface this question with a disclaimer before I'm inapprorpriately labeled: I really like Privateer Press. I really like Warmachine and Hordes. I'm going to buy a Stormwall when it's released (despite the semi-prohibitive cost). So I'm not some GW-only "fanboi."

But as the months have gone by and I haven't had a release in quite some time for either of my armies (Trolls/Cygnar), I couldn't help but wonder where they were, and how much longer I'd have to wait. I'm seeing the previews of the Stormwall, a model in an upcoming book, but I haven't seen the Avenger. I'm stoked to get a peek at the Mountain King Colossal at Adepticon, but I haven't even seen concept art for the Sons of Bragg models. The Minuteman is slated for release on April 11, 2012, 10 months after the release of Wrath. The Avenger has no slated release date, nor have we seen any previews. I expect the Avenger to drop after June 2012, after the Stormwall, and over a full year from the release of the book in which it's featured.

Two things about this make me curious: a) why is Privateer releasing models for a new book before all the models for Wrath have been released? and b) why doesn't anyone else see this as a problem?

I'll never hide the fact that I believe GW is unfairly scrutinized. Do they have questionable marketing tactics sometimes? Yes. Were there major problems with the manner in which Finecast was released? Absolutely yes. But we all know they information lockdown is a result of their contract with New Line, and any reasonable person can ascertain that the Finecast release was far too rushed. But when I see the arguments about the Thunderwolves and their late entrance to the Space Wolves party, then look at the Wrath release "schedule" I can't help but see the disparity in treatment.

My question to you all is, "Why?" Are the GW 'haters' simply more vocal than anyone disparaging Privateer? Or is it something else?

DISCLAIMER: Please keep your comment courteous and on topic; both of the game systems are great for separate reasons.

[energongoodie]

You always hurt the one you love the most.

[Levitas]

It's a weird one.

I think for me I really-really wanted thunderwolves to be the beautiful GW models they are now...but available at release. I bought 3rd party, played a ton of games then moved on to another army. The new models are better than the 3rd party sculpts i have, but I couldn't justify the money to buy them and the time to paint them. No anger from me, but the ship had sailed.

I think the anger is frustration, as pre-grey knights thunder wolves would have sold like hot cakes. Now wolf players will buy them for the models, as competitively GKs ruin them, so cant see serious tournament players running them. Hope i'm wrong, but I know GKs effected their game.

Not sure why PP got different reaction, maybe they have more chilled out fans?!

[Ironwolf]

All admit I was a bit annoyed that it took GW so long to release them especially after GKs came out then from very competitive to fluffy unit instantly. Hasn't stopped me from ordering a box tho I bought Canis when the new dex came out and was hesitant about buying 3rd party thunderwolves(even tho the mythicast ones are very tempting).

I'm hoping GW will learn from what happened with chapterhouse/other 3rd party mini companys regarding the tervigant/thunderwolves upgrade kit being made quicker and steps up its game because they can't rely on lawsuithammer any longer to see them re coop any lost profits.

As for PP being a cygnar player myself the only reason I think the avenger is being delayed is because I heard/hope there were doing a second heavy multi-plastic kit that will be hammersmith/centurion/avenger.And isn't just cyngar who are missing jacks from wrath demolisher(?) from khador still has yet to be relased. I also heard somewhere that all the new models for wrath/domination will be released before colossals hits. As for why PP fans aren't griping my reasoning is they doing everything we wish GW would be doing and are more approachable.

And you are right both are great games and I enjoy both.

[Harmonious Borealis]

I'm pissed because I'm too far through my custom TWs to junk them, but not far enough through to play them. I've only recently started playing Hordes, so I haven't had as much time to build up observations like these, though I have had time to compare GW and PP's mispack rates and customer service.

What strikes me a little off on PP's side of the board is their policy on unreleased models in tournaments, along with their conversion policy. You can't play an unreleased model, and conversions must be a majority of parts of the original model. This is apparently to avoid confusion at the game table, which is fair enough I guess. Full text here: [url]http://privateerpress.com/files/2012Conversion_Policy_v1.2.pdf[/url]
For them, it's actually a bigger deal when they don't release a model for a year, because there's no recourse, it's just a dead page in your book in any kind of official event until they release the model. Unless your Organizer reeeeally likes you, and it's a fairly casual event. Granted, I haven't heard of anything taking 2 years from them

With Warhammer, you could potentially scratchbuild an unreleased model, or convert from existing models. I'm making my Thunderwolves out of high elf lions, and this way GW actually ended up getting more money from me. I just don't have the money to spend anymore, and I feel a little bad that mine probably aren't going to be as nice as these new ones.

[Lexington]

The big, obvious thing here is that people have been offering Thunderwolves (and Tervigions, for that matter) for years now, and the people who really want them have them. Are the GW ones more appropriate and easier to use/acquire? Sure, but for a lot of people, that's just not enough to shell out the extra cash. The fact that the reaction to their appearance seems to be "competent but not amazing" probably hurts as well.

Finally, there's also the fact that there's a more concentrated place to find people criticizing PP - the Privateer Press Forums. Why bother sitting around here and complaining when you can go do it on the official website of the company, which is frequented by actual PP staffers? Believe me, complaints about the lateness of models there are far from uncommon. Heck, I think every new release for a good year or so was greeted with "where's the Retribution Destors and MoW Bombadiers?'

[wittdooley]

The big, obvious thing here is that people have been offering Thunderwolves (and Tervigions, for that matter) for years now, and the people who really want them have them. Are the GW ones more appropriate and easier to use/acquire? Sure, but for a lot of people, that's just not enough to shell out the extra cash. The fact that the reaction to their appearance seems to be "competent but not amazing" probably hurts as well.

Finally, there's also the fact that there's a more concentrated place to find people criticizing PP - the Privateer Press Forums. Why bother sitting around here and complaining when you can go do it on the official website of the company, which is frequented by actual PP staffers? Believe me, complaints about the lateness of models there are far from uncommon. Heck, I think every new release for a good year or so was greeted with "where's the Retribution Destors and MoW Bombadiers?'

I think that's fair. I don't know if the PP Forums would be the best place to get any sense of impartiality, though. Again, I play both games equally, have as much of my Cygnar Painted as I do my Muhhhreeens, and have been itching to get my hands on a Minuteman. I'd honestly forgotten about the Avenger until I did some of the research for this article.

My biggest problem with them sometimes is their want to diversify beyond what they can handle, and thus their dates slip. IMO, their "core list" is a joke. Even when GW Direct was at its worst, it wasn't taking me 4-6 weeks to get a model in. And a 3-5 business day wait on even having the order processed? Come on now. I'm sure the excuse will be raised that they're a "smaller company;" well, I've never had an order from coolstuffinc.com or miniaturemarket.com take 3-5 days to process.

The fact that there are pretty important pieces (Earthborn Dire Troll!) missing from the core list concerns me. I've had two locals stockists drop their support of the line because they never know what they'll be able to get in. This diversification (which is essentially taking a bigger bite than they can chew) has led to the Colossals, which according to the dates I've seen, will start coming out before all of the models for Wrath are released. That doesn't make a ton of sense to me, and I'm wholly excited to get a Stormwall.

[inquisitorsog]

I think you're running into two problems beyond the "ship had sailed" issue:
1) There's folks who find the idea of a power armored gene enhanced super soldier riding an animal into battle a just a wee bit silly. For crying out loud, what's the name of the Imperium's main battle tank? It's not the Rogal Dorn! Seeing the Space Wolves turned fully into a Fantasy-In-Space army was a bit depressing for some of us. Given the Wolves' fluff, the wolf packs were completely acceptable, but Cavalry? What?
2) The sculpts when _finally_ released, were a little underwhelming. At least one rider looks like he's about to fall off to me.
I wasn't thrilled with the concept but was willing to allow them into my happy place if they sculpts did the concept justice. I don't think they did, so they stay outside my happy place.

[Thornblood]

I think I have two reasons, one simple, ad one more complex and up for debate as to peoples attitudes.

The first is simply 'haters gonna hate'. Because Games Workshop are bigger there are more fans for them to hurt. The flip side of the success story.

The second is the theme and IP of the products. Games Workshop is grimdark, gothic, everything has a side of evil in it kinda thing and people associate that with games workshop. Absorbing yourself in Games Workshop IP in an obsessive its-taking-over-my-life kinda way tends to bring out the worst in people. Also, in GW books, you are always rooting for the underdog- Cains last stand against a horde of tyranids, Gaunts valiant crusade against the blood pact and the internal politics of the Imperial Guard, Uriel Ventris or Ragnar against ridiculous odds, Garro or Loken against their traitor brethren. GW is the monstrous unstoppable bureaucratic enemy and Privateer Press is the underdog trying to play in the big leagues. Like all the Back Library heroes and character development.

Privateer however is less grimdark and has an element of that american-fantasy-cartoony world of warcraft design which says 'fun' before 'function' and claims to be a game, not 'The Games Workshop Hobby'. I think Privateer Press, because they are newer and less developed are easier to walk away from if people get upset. Ive stopped buying GW models or gaming several times but stayed with the hobby because I kept reading the books, or played DoW, or just kept up with newsletters and fansites like Bols.

Also, in defence of both companies the 'release everything in the book' idea is relatively new. Games Workshop used to make rules and never make models in some cases, giving scope for converting. Its odd that there was so much hate for the lack of thundewolves/tervigon, I guess because they were the game-changing units in the book with incredible potential (wound allocation/spawn new models). GW boxes with 'all the wargear options' are great, but I would rather have more bodies and be able to scrounge around my bitz box/ the old trolls direct bitz service to get what I wanted. We used to love our conversions so....

Anyway, being new to PP my first instinct when I saw 'The Sons of Bragg' was convert them from fellcallers. However, after a little thought I figured its just a matter of time before they are released, so I wont. There is nothing more annoying than beloved conversions being upstaged by manufacturers producing better models for cheaper than your conversions. Which could alos be another reason for all the hate- all the third party thunderwolf expenses, the chapterhouse lawsuit, the maimed HE Lions with Space marines forced to straddle them.... the horror....

[kingsfan2099]

Hell yeah Haters gonna Hate and they really hate the big boy on the block and GW will be scrutinized until they are no longer, whenever that may be. Price hikes which have hurt the future of the game, still yet to be felt, and the recent marketing strategy which allows no hype to be built, which they say according to their market strategy no hype means overspending on initial release, are just to name a few that have fostered a little ill will with GW. All that said I think the TWC models look awesome and it has made me question putting together a SW army and someone I know who plays SW has already gotten a box of them. They will sell at least in my area I'm sure of it.

PP has not built this ill will and I believe the Space Wolves codex has been out for over 2 years. 2 years > 1 year in regards to the TWC release vs. the Wrath releases.