Vanilla Chaos Space Marines vs Plague Marines

[herpguy]

I'm trying to figure out what all your opinions are on the whole Vanilla CSM vs Plague Marines.
I used to be a huge advocate for small plague marine squads, as FnP definitely helps out a lot. However, there seem to be too many low ap/high strength weapons out there nowadays, which would force an invul save anyways and thus negate FnP.

My past few games I have been taking 10 man CSM squads with two special weapons (either meltas or plasmas) and have been having great success with the mere swarm of bodies to take high power hits.

Also with Mark of Chaos Glory it lets you reroll all morale checks, so with Ld 10 you really shouldn't be failing anything, whether it's from shooting or combat.

CSM are way cheaper like this but I wanted to know all your opinions on this.

[miweq]

10-man squads with 2 plasmaguns should work very well against Plague Marines. Havocs with Missile Launchers will probably be very useful too. They wound Plague Marines on 2+ without armour or FnP save, and if needed they can destroy their vehicles from long range

[Infinite Resignation]

Having the same dilemma myself, working out what to use as a backfield objective sitter. 5 PM in a rhino with Havoc Launcher and 5 Lesser Daemons (265) are roughly the same price as 10 CSM, lascannon and plasma gun (245) . I played through a few micro games just between these two setups yesterday.


The CSM can reach out and touch someone with their lascannon so are better in Capture and Control if the objective is against the back table edge. Plus they have enough bodies that their small arms fire is a threat to most foot units that get too close.

The Plague Marines Daemon combo is flexible in that it can drop off the daemons who can run back to an objective. Two plasma guns is also good at commanding in midfield, so works well if you can put an objective in the middle of the table in Seize Ground. Their range is limited though compared to the lascannon. In assault they aren't as killy as the CSM but unless the squad they are fighting has a fist they will probably win assault through sheer toughness. They are also fearless (even with re-rolls the CSM will fail a test eventually) so are extremely difficult to shift off an objective with assault. The daemons make up for their lack of numbers also to a degree.

Ultimately I came to the conclusion that as backfield objective sitters both setups were equally good. What will swing it is the composition of the rest of your army.

In my 1500 mech nugle list there is an attempt to saturate the enemies high strength weaponry. I have three vindicators, long range fire support from three ML/AC or ML/PC Dreads. It is unlikely the enemy will have enough high strength weaponry to also deal with the Plague marines as well.

In my mixed Khorne/Nurgle/CSM army which has Berserkers, Kharn and MM/DCCW Dreads the long range fire support is provided by two AC/LC predators which isn't really enough, so having that extra lascannon helps and there is already enough standard power armour infantry on the table that the CSM don't stand out as an easy target. I also have a unit of plague marines with 2x meltas as close support for the Berserkers.

In my pure CSM list (fluffy Alpha Legion with maxed Chosen) obviously I don't have Plague Marines, but the mass of CSM on the table means the list also works.

So to conclude this rambling post, I think they both work and are equally good if spammed (ie the army is all plague marines and high AP, or a horde of CSM). In a mixed force it will depend on what you need, the CSM ability to take a heavy weapon will help if you are lacking long range fire support, the Plague Marines toughness and MSU special weapon potential helps if that is what you are lacking.

[herpguy]

Thanks for the input man. I was always told that plague marines were always the way to go. Then one day I decided to try regular CSM for the heck of it and they did very well. Your points are very true. It seems neither are better than the other, but each can fulfill certain tasks. It is true plague marines really do excel at objective holding, and I really should try that daemon tactic.

I use three vindicators usually as well, and it is definitely great to load up on mid range weapons for an "in your face" tactic with berserkers.

Thanks for the valid points and the great discussion.

[Infinite Resignation]

My pleasure! All the cult troops have their place I think, though TSons and Noise Marines are overpriced for what they do, I can imagine fun lists based on them that might not lose every time...

Berserkers are actually pretty good especially as a hurty bodyguard for Kharn, though getting them to their target might be difficult with Chaos's lack of assault vehicles except overpriced Land Raiders which have to be bought for Terminators and then embarked onto during the game :-(

Of course if your regular opponents like Forgeworld then Berserkers in a Dreadclaw are very cool!