Reduced dominance of cannon - more viable builds?

[KriegXXIX]

The Engineer is probably worth it when attached to a Helblaster Volley Gun. Those weapons got a lot better in the new book and I am probably going to run 1-2 of them from here on out. They will probably help out against monsters too. The nerf I am really surprised with is the Helstorm. I didn't think that many people ran it before. I did b/c the s5 was worth it, but I will be honest as the number of times it hits is rather low.

[T-ORK-amada]

I think that it will increase the use of large monsters for some armies. If you can bring 3 to 4 large monsters to bear, then you will most likely do so now because now Empire (and possibly Dwarves) will not be able to fire with impunity, particularly with the Engineer being rebalanced. If you can field only 1 or 2, then you probably wouldn't because they are still threatened by only having a couple cannons. The mortar on the other hand, will still see play, particularly combined with a Wizard with Shadow. Since the empire characters are still rather inexpensive and can field multiple wizards as well as other characters, I wouldn't be surprised to see it pop up. I think the biggest threat to monsters is still the steamtank/Lore of Life combo. Most monsters will still have a hard time with it and being able to heal the tank AND with the new way of generating steam points, the tank is still usable after taking a few hits.

[Wildeybeast]

The more I think about it, the more i think the Luminark of Hysh will negate the lack of cannons. For exactly the same points cost as a cannon, you get a S8, flaming magic missile bolt thrower. Whilst it can obviously be dispelled, it will auto hit and won;t misfire which I think is a more than adequate trade off, especially when it lets your wizard lord ride around in safety and gives everything in 6" a 6++. GW has deliberately neutered cannons to force empire players to be more agressive, tatical and mobile (poor poor dwarves) but they have still given us plenty of monster killers (don't forget all those S5/6 troops wandering around and you have access to 4 Runefangs), so I'm not sure monsters are a whole lot more survivable, just a bit.

[eldargal]

I'm actually thinking taking a couple of monsters in my Witch Elf heavy list might be good. Who do you shoot at, the hydras or the 80 angry, violent hoes charging at you with a zillion armour piercing, poisoned attacks backed by a cauldron of blood.

Also for the same price as a Luminark, a cannon does D6 S10 hits instead of D3 S8 so I'm not sure it will be replacing it in a hurry. Used in addition to, perhaps. I'm also renaming the Luminark to 'von Winckelmanns Exceedingly Nifty Lens Based Apparatus for the Expeditious and Efficatious Extermination of the Enemies of Sigmar's Glorious Empire, patent pending'.

[T-ORK-amada]

The Luminarck is good but is a target in itself. Sure it can stay in the back, but then falls pray to ambushers such as forgers and miners. I think the days of the empire gunline are coming to a close. Units are too big to be broken by handgunners anymore. And units small enough to be hurt are usually immune to psych or such things. The strength in eighth is hordes and large troop blocks and the new combat rules. Those are the reasons some monsters are no longer viable. Hitting a unit and doing 6 attacks will no longer mean no attacks back. Monsters have a roll and that is to absorb firepower. People still fear them because of what they were, not what they are.

[eldargal]

I'm not so sure, it is true a monster can't autowin a combat anymore but charge one into the flanks of a regiment in combat and it can do a lot of damage, often for less points than an equivalent cavalry unit. So they draw away fire from other targets and can assist said targets in combat.

[T-ORK-amada]

I think it truely depends on the monster. Hydras are SUPER good. Giants, however, not so much. It depends on utilit. Giants are only good for combat where a cygor is a stonethrower and mage deterrent. A heirotitan is a buff to magic, a sphinx is a hard roadblock and a bone giant is a waste of points.

[Wildeybeast]

So, I tried out my new Empire army list yesterday, including KF on DC and the experience with him summed up prefectly for me just how survivable monsters are. KF flew around smashing to pieces a Warpshinx, Casket of Souls, and two screaming skull catapults before getting ambushed by a horde of Tomb Guard and getting hacked to pieces. Whilst monsters are going to attract less cannon fire by virtue of there being less cannons, they are still just as vulnerable to big units of infantry unless supported by big units of infantry.

[Surendil]

I'm actually thinking taking a couple of monsters in my Witch Elf heavy list might be good. Who do you shoot at, the hydras or the 80 angry, violent hoes charging at you with a zillion armour piercing, poisoned attacks backed by a cauldron of blood.

I'd shoot the cauldron :P And after it, the hydras. How many witches would a cannon kill? 3? 4? (even without a 5++ from the cauldron).