Empire Army book - likes and dislikes

[Wildeybeast]

So, those hardcore Empire players like myself have no doubt eagerly rushed out and spent today reading through the Empire book, just like I did. So, I'm wanting to know people's thoughts on the book and changes. I'm not just talking rules and I don't want this to be a moaning forum, more a discussion of your thoughts. So, I'll kick it off with some of my likes and dislikes.

LIKES
(Slightly) Expanded background - A bit more on the destruction of Solland and the Wars of the Vampire Counts

Demi-Gryph Knights - particularly their background and the mention of Knights riding other monsters, specifically The Winter of Wolves of Middenehim. Thunderwolf Cavalry + Knights = Frickkin awesome 'counts as' models!

Witch Hunters. Not only are they fluff gold, but at 50 points they are awesome wizard and hero killers. Sniper shots that have killing blow!? hell yes!

Marius Leitdorf. From the fluff of him brutally murdering halflings and seducing every woman in court to his 'crazy table' which may result him reciting poetry or going mental over his shirt being damaged he is awesome in every way and pretty reasonably priced at 220 point.

Steam Tank. Been nerfed stat wise, but has gone down 50 points and I think the new Steam points and misfire system means it is actually more useful and less likely to be renedered impotent by losing a few wounds.

DISLIKES
Nerfing of warmachines. I think the Helstorm and Mortar are now largely useless, I don't see any use for them except against Goblins and Skavenslaves.

Nerfing of Engineers. Unless you are running an artillery heavy army (and given the above, why would you?), there are much better uses for your points now.

Volkmar the Grim. Cruddace has decided to retcon the fluff and Volkmar's imprisonment and torment by Be'laakor has been removed, along with his Frenzy rule. Why?

So what do all the Empire fanboys think about the changes? Who else has a burning desire to make some Whitethunderwolf Knights?

[Chronowraith]

I had posted my likes and dislikes in the old thread. Overall I'm in agreement with you.

On the likes side throw in the new detachment rules since they are awesome. Also the new wizardmobiles are pretty awesome given their low point cost.

I disagree with the witch hunter though. He just doesn't have the stats, even with rerolls, to kill much of anything. I can see him killing some mages and a few characters but these are mostly goblins, skaven warlock engineers, elf mages of all types... Play against a Chaos Warrior army or even possibly a Vampire army (with no necros) and he's going to get annihilated... not because of special rules but just raw stats.

On the dislikes side... again.. I mostly agree. I think it's absurd that no characters can ride demigryphs though. I also hate that the steam tank is the ONLY heavy hitter in the rare slot. I knew before buying the book that War Wagons were out, but I was certainly hoping that maybe you could take a griffon as a rare or something. I really wish that the Empire book would at least give a single paragraph to each of the various states of the Empire. I don't think an Empire book has done that for a considerable amount of time. Usually it's just a sentence or two.

Again, I'm going to disagree with you on the warmachines. Mortars work fine. They are less useful against T4+ units but they still cause damage. They were simply too overpowered before. There is no reason a model that didn't even cost 100 points could cause as much damage as they did in the former book. If you get a solid hit on a unit you still hit 16ish models. the helstorm took a little bit more of a hit since it lost 2 points of strength and went from big to small templates. That being said it fires d3 small templates every turn and is now armor piercing. I haven't tried one, but I think it could still work, although would be even more random in nature.

I see GW as trying to shift games away from static gun lines and more into tactical movements. They want people to think about their actions and not just be on auto pilot which was really easy to fall into with an Empire gun line (same for dwarves). To this end they made the war machines more expensive and made the detachment rules much more flexible and inclusive.

[Wildeybeast]

Have to say I think you have missed the point of the Witch Hunter. He isn't designed to go up against combat monster heroes. What he is designed to do is kill mages. He will force all wizard lords to make sure that they have a ward save because otherwise they run the risk of being killed by a single pistol shot, and most people I play with rely on the safety of a unit to protect him. I think once people cotton on to them they will become a bit of an indulgence, but still less so than an engineer!

I agree on the lack of info on each of the states, I want more background! Why has no one taken over from Marius Leitdorf and what is going on with the missing elector count?

On the warmachines, I think mortars and helstorms will still work, but I just think there are much better uses for you points. With the mortar you need 5's to wound T3 models, so you are going to kill maybe 5 of those 16 models, assuming you get a good hit and the things doesn't misfire. I do however like the fact that all the warmachines have been bought in line with the standard misfire chart and I like what they have done with the helblaster misfire system.

I don't get why you feel we need another heavy hitter in the rare slot. With Knights, Rieksguard, Demigryphs and Greatswords there are plenty of S5/6 attacks wandering around elsewhere and they are going to chop up most things. The Luminark of Hysh kicks out S8, D3 wounds, flaming, magic missile bolt thrower shot (goodbye hellpit!)and that is in the rare slot.

Oh and one other big like I have is the BSB gets Hold the Line! Stick him in a unit with the +1 Ld banner and they aren't going anywhere!

[Diagnosis Ninja]

New guy, so beware my opinions:

I'm on the witch hunters side: I think he's awesome. He seems like a decent character hunter, and seen as his rule says model it at least means you could go sideways and aim for a unit leader or something. Might be a waste, but if your friends are in the habit of taking Magic Items on unit characters then the Pistol can snipe at them for an extra shot at killing blow. Besides, 60 points with all his weapons when he gives Magic resistance two and some kind of terror resistance to a unit is great.

Question I've always had: What is the point in a crossbowman when handgunners cost the same? Surely that 6" range isn't worth Armour Piercing?

As for warmachines and engineers, he seems expensive, and more like I'd take him with an Arabyan Carpet and pigeon bombs :P

As for the rare choice, the two new chariots seem interesting. While they aren't the whole shebang, they provide decent support for the rest of your army, and have some effects in their which would be silly not to dispel.

[Chronowraith]

Oh, I recognize the witch hunter is pretty good at killing mages... but to me he is situational at best. He costs 50 points and that is about the level of hero I'd have him go after (mage or otherwise). Maybe it is a difference of local-meta but around here.. people protect their level 4s with at least a 5+ invulnerable. Their main use will be against TK Hierophants (poor, poor TK), VC necromancers, and daemon heralds.

On the warmachines... I think that was GW's point. They wanted people to have to make choices. They've always exhibited a severe dislike of "auto-includes" and the mortar wasn't just an auto-include it was a, "Yes, I'd like 3 more please".

I think my desire for a hard-hitting rare slot is due to previous books. If you look at the other books that have come out in 8th edition they all get some big combat monster to throw in the rare slot. The wizard-mobiles are fantastic additions (particularly the luminark) but they are more support oriented... stay behind the lines and shoot and buff things as opposed to up-in-your-face combat goodness. That is why I wanted the war wagon.

Empire in general is going to be incredibly difficult to shift. They don't need to be steadfast since they can quite easily throw stubborn onto troops through cheap characters. I think this is the balancing factor to the increased point costs. You don't have to take as many warriors as before since you can easily gain stubborn.

I know it has been mentioned by many... but I'm still awestruck by the demigryph knights. Great fluff, great models, and a great unit overall. A little pricey... but you get what you pay for. These puppies are fantastic... now if only we could have characters with demigryph mounts!!! (I think GW just got lazy there and didn't want to do the model)

[Chronowraith]

That 6" could mean an entire extra round of shooting. In most scenarios you will start slightly more than 24" from your opponent (most people I've met will set up slightly back from the deployment line)... this means your handgunners can't shoot if you get the first turn while crossbows can. Against horde armies this is more crucial than armor piercing (armor piercing against skavenslaves is pointless).

Engineers really came out worse for wear. Incredibly saddening given the awesome plastic model that just came out.

You bring up a valid point with the witch hunter that I hadn't considered. The magic resistance granted to the unit he joins would be pretty spiffy. I still doubt his ability to kill anything other than weak characters though... but he has such a fantastic figure that I'll probably pick him up and give him a try at least. Can't hurt, right?

I'm on the witch hunters side: I think he's awesome. He seems like a decent character hunter, and seen as his rule says model it at least means you could go sideways and aim for a unit leader or something. Might be a waste, but if your friends are in the habit of taking Magic Items on unit characters then the Pistol can snipe at them for an extra shot at killing blow. Besides, 60 points with all his weapons when he gives Magic resistance two and some kind of terror resistance to a unit is great.

Question I've always had: What is the point in a crossbowman when handgunners cost the same? Surely that 6" range isn't worth Armour Piercing?

As for warmachines and engineers, he seems expensive, and more like I'd take him with an Arabyan Carpet and pigeon bombs :P

[Wildeybeast]

I know it has been mentioned by many... but I'm still awestruck by the demigryph knights. Great fluff, great models, and a great unit overall. A little pricey... but you get what you pay for. These puppies are fantastic... now if only we could have characters with demigryph mounts!!! (I think GW just got lazy there and didn't want to do the model)

They didn't even need to, with the Empire plastic hero kit you could easily convert one! Afterall, it's what you have to do if you want KF on a dragon or someone riding a pegasus, so they do it elsewhere in the book. Just a baffling decision all round. Still, loads of opportunities for other demigryph conversions. I can see some riding pegasi, unicorns, stags, my aforementioned thunderwolves etc.

[Diagnosis Ninja]

Hmm, I don't usually consider ranges over 24" in 40k. There, it's either that you've hit because it can reach the entire board, or you're about to charge, so things such as Tau Pulse Rifles play mostly the same as a Boltgun. I suppose the extra 3" short range might help a little too.

I also have another question: Detachments. I understand how they work, but I was wondering what other people thought of what units would act as better detachments and what as the major units?

Current idea I have for a solid battle line core looks something like:

Captain
Full Plate
Shield
Sword of Might
Helm of the Skavenslayer

Greatswords
Full Command
Glistening Pendant

Detachments

So far as I can tell, they're all have Hold the Line and Stubborn, as well as the Greatswords rerolling their first fail. They aren't going anywhere soon.

Thing is, any tips on the detachments units?

[Wildeybeast]

Really depends on what you are facing. Against 'standard' troops such as skaven the WS4 of Swordsmen is useful, against T4 troops like ogres you want the S4 halberds. I really don't see the point in militia or spearmen. Missile detachments are useful if you are using the parent unit defensively, but if you are taking the fight to your enemy they are going to be moving a lot and as such won't be shooting.

[Chronowraith]

I use militia all the time as detachments. They receive a ton of attacks. Sure, they aren't the most survivable and they are only WS3 S3 I3, but they are just as survivable as spearmen and halberdiers and against T3 enemies do more damage.

The only unit I wouldn't use as a detachment are probably spearmen. They tend to make better parent units although I still consider spears pretty weak in 8th edition overall. I tend to use Halberdiers and Swordsmen as parent units and then militia or halberdiers as detachments. I have also had luck with archers as detachments.