Do Grey Knights Deserve the Hate?

[bfmusashi]

So, the problem is units can compensate for each others' weaknesses to the point of negation?

[DrLove42]

So, the problem is units can compensate for each others' weaknesses to the point of negation?

This is a good way of looking at it. It also doesn't help that the GK weaknesses aren't as pronounced as they are in other races.

For the ultimate in required synergy you look at Eldar

Scorpions? Excel at Hordes in melee. Banshees? Excel at armoured combat. Reapers? Exceed at Ap3 firepower. Dragons? Excel at killing armour

But you match up badly...shoot at a Banshee or assault a Reaper and everything goes to hell.

A GK unit doesn't have as strong a weakness. They don't die to shooting easily and can shoot back better than most. They don't die to assault as much, and can dish it out incredibly hard.

[GrogDaTyrant]

Burnas are a better option. They have the same WS and will be S4 on the charge and will strike at the same time as GK. They arn't Strength 8, but they do have power weapons, and they're a third of the price.

This is terrible advice. Burnas swing at Initiative 3 when charging. The only units you should be charging at all with them, are units that cannot feasibly hope to do more than a wound or two in a turn, or swing after Orks (as rare as that is now). If you take a unit of Burnas and charge something like purifiers or paladins, you're going to end up with upwards of 225 pts in your casualty pile and little to show for it.

A much bette plan of attack would be to take those burnas, give them a transport Battlewagon out of your Heavy Support (because some idiot gave them no transport options...), drive up beside an offending unit (i.e. Thunderhammer/Stormshield terminators, Purifiers, anything with T 4 and without FnP), and unload 10 to 15 burna templates into them. If you manage to catch 4 in the template(s), you'll end up with anywhere between 40 to 60 hits, which should average out to 20 to 30 wounds. And god help them if you can land 6 under the template...

[Kawauso]

See also at this point - Necron Living Metal. Thats free on all vehicles and just as dirty.

Except Necron vehicles are all pretty pricey outside of the Annihilation Barges, and Living Metal is 3x more likely to fail preventing Stunned results. Also, it's rolled for after each result is applied, so you know whether or not you have to keep shooting a vehicle or can move on to another target. With GK you don't know whether or not Fortitude is going to do anything until the GK player turn, and when it works it wipes any number of Shaken/Stunned results clean.

They're similar, but Fortitude is better despite being a psychic power, and if I had to hazard a guess I'd say Living Metal costs more than 5 points on most Necron vehicles (we have no point of comparison to be sure, though).

[Kawauso]

I don't have a fancy degree but I do have 35 years of practical wargaming experience. I have been playing GW games since WFB 1st edition.

So yes I have practical knowledge of what it takes to design a wargame.

All I was asking. :P
I don't have a 'fancy degree' either, if you'll go back over my first post.

The reason I asked is because a lot of people tend to think they'd make a good game designer with no idea as to how tricky design actually is. And your comment about how horribly unbalanced 5th edition 40k surprised me a little because, like I said, I've found 5th overall to be pretty good considering where the game was at the start of the edition.

[Big Jim]

All I was asking. :P
I don't have a 'fancy degree' either, if you'll go back over my first post.

The reason I asked is because a lot of people tend to think they'd make a good game designer with no idea as to how tricky design actually is. And your comment about how horribly unbalanced 5th edition 40k surprised me a little because, like I said, I've found 5th overall to be pretty good considering where the game was at the start of the edition.

Sorry I was being snarky I get asked that quite often lately, I really do apologize for the tone.

It's not so much that I think 5th as a whole is unbalanced, but we keep getting these OTT units or entire books that throw that balance into question.

In my opinion one of the most failing thing in 40k is the points system, because it is arbitrary and based on "that feels right" principle, in stead of a standardized points matrix. It really gets crazy some times, a drop here or rise in points there for no ascertainable reason is frustrating at times. Unfortunately this codex has been extremely frustrating.

It's not that GK's are unbeatable, they are beatable, but it requires more effort than I want to put into a game outside of a tournament setting.

[Rapture]

I would like to take back everything that I said. I just read an eye-opening BoLS article on the front page. Who knew that flooding the table with biblical proportions of plasma and lascannon fire was all it took to beat the GKs?

[Cuddy]

This is terrible advice. Burnas swing at Initiative 3 when charging. The only units you should be charging at all with them, are units that cannot feasibly hope to do more than a wound or two in a turn, or swing after Orks (as rare as that is now). If you take a unit of Burnas and charge something like purifiers or paladins, you're going to end up with upwards of 225 pts in your casualty pile and little to show for it.

A much bette plan of attack would be to take those burnas, give them a transport Battlewagon out of your Heavy Support (because some idiot gave them no transport options...), drive up beside an offending unit (i.e. Thunderhammer/Stormshield terminators, Purifiers, anything with T 4 and without FnP), and unload 10 to 15 burna templates into them. If you manage to catch 4 in the template(s), you'll end up with anywhere between 40 to 60 hits, which should average out to 20 to 30 wounds. And god help them if you can land 6 under the template...

I didnt go into tactics, because this thread isnt really about orks, but I assumed anyone here who played orks would know to use battlewagons, shoot with some of the burnas/allocate the first wounds in combat to the ones that shot etc. They give you a lot more tactical flexibility then a nob deathstar has. You cannot really afford more then one nob unit, and the GK player is not going to have an issue shooting it to death on the way in. It will be THE target in your army, and its not that tough. Both the burnas and Nobz will get massacred before they attack back, the burnas arn't quite a s killy, but you can have three of them, with more models and more tactical options (template spam, battlewagon drivebys) then the nobz. Orks arn't good against GK, I don't nkow what you want.

And arguing that they will end up slaughtered before they can do much just underlines my point about nobz. To a Grey Knight, a Nob is just as survivable as a Burna. They have same WS and T, and the armor, multiwounds, FNP they get is ignored. The Burnas have a better chance of striking back, since they have more models in the unit, on average and maxed out.

Ghaz/Nobz cannot depend on getting the charge. As I said, their transport will be a huge 600 point "SHOOT ME FIRST" sign, it won't survive coming into range. After that (and before) Ghaz is in Mega Armor, this makes the unit slow. Since the GK units are faster (and probably meched, another weak point for orks) there is no reason they should get charged.

Could the ork player outplay an incompetent GK player, tie him up and multicharge? Yes, but now we are assuming that the Ork player is much better then the GK player, so its not exactly reliable.

EDIT: Just ran the numbers quick. This is very conservative, with no upgrades to the squad, not getting hammerhand off, etc.

On the charge:
1 Dead Nob/Burna per Paladin
0.75 Dead Nobz/Burnas per Termie
1.67 Dead Termies per Nob (before invuln)
0.75 Dead Termies per Burna (before invuln)

Getting Charged:
2/3 dead Nob/Burna per Paladin
0.5 Dead Nob/Burna per Termie
1.25 Dead Termies per Nob (before invuln)
0.33 per Burna (before invuln)

This is the best case scenario for an ork deathstar. Like I said, its unrealistic, as the unit would be shot, have mobility issues etc, and this is their ideal matchup, vs a squad that they are specialized against and have no upgrades/powers. With around 330 points of each (6 GK, 7 Nobz), when the nobz charge, the result is 4 dead nobz, 2.5 dead Paladins . Next turn is another dead nob or two, and the paladins are finished. Not a terrible trade off, but not great. Considering this is the very best outcome (no upgrades/powers/characters/shooting) and that those paladins have more abilities on the battlefield then just smashing face, and you basically break even, its not ideal.

Same points values of Burnas would be 15 burnas for 4 paladins. Assuming a worse scenario (you don't flame the paladins with some guys before charging, then allocate wounds to them to avoid losing PW attacks) we get 2.67 dead Burnas, and 9 wounds on the Paladins. With the same number of paladins above (a units 50% more points then the burnas) it comes to 4 dead burnas, 8.25 wounds on the Paladins. Thats the unit wiped for 60 points of dead orks. Plus the burnas can do a lot more on the battlefield. This is why I'm advocating them. Plus, you can have three units of them for the cost of your deathstar, which helps with not having one priority target for your enemies awesome shooting.

[Levitas]

It's not that GK's are unbeatable, they are beatable, but it requires more effort than I want to put into a game outside of a tournament setting.

This. So very much this.

[GrogDaTyrant]

Cuddy, what the hell are you going on about? I'm not trying to claim a nob deathstar is better than burnas against GK. My point is Burnas are not worth their points in close combat, and suffer far too many casualties to be effective against anything with 2 or more base attacks. Leave Burnas in their transport, and only charge basic 1-attack infantry.

To a Grey Knight, a Nob is just as survivable as a Burna. They have same WS and T, and the armor, multiwounds, FNP they get is ignored.

WS 5 on the Nobs, with a Waaagh Banner. And they will have a 5++, because you should be taking Cybork bodies if you're getting a Painboy. But that's not the point, because a unit of WS 5 Nobs with 5++ Cybork are still going to get schooled by anything in the GK codex, and I'm not arguing against that fact.

The Burnas have a better chance of striking back, since they have more models in the unit, on average and maxed out.

Burnas may have a better chance at striking back (compared to Nobs) against 1-attack basic GKs or GK Terminators, but you're still going to lose against anything else and you're still throwing points into your casualty pile. You're better off spending that elite slot on something more useful (and not as gimmicky), like Snikrot Kommandos, or Lootas. You also don't see GK armies without (plenty) of Purifiers if the person has any clue they'll be facing off against Orks. And there's literally nothing you can do against those in combat, short of throwing some walkers at them and hoping the Psyrifle Dreads bounce off your KFF.

Ultimately the most best thing for an Ork army to do against Grey Knights, is to simply not play against them at all. I'm not saying GK are unbeatable (far from it). But I am saying I found it to be a frustrating and thoroughly unenjoyable waste of time, win or lose.