Do Grey Knights Deserve the Hate?

**DarkLink** · 04-24-2012, 02:06 PM

That's why I've found psyrifle dreads to be a bit overrated. You need a couple to reach out and touch your opponent's backfield units, but other than that psycannons do the job while also bringing scoring, storm bolters, assault and extra bodies. Psyrifle Dreads are good at one thing and one thing only, killing light vehicles at range. If 6th ed tones down the importance of transports, then psyrifle dreads will become less common very quickly.

Not having an invulnerable save and army wide FNP is not a disadvantage, it is normal

It's normal, until you realize that most other armie's troops are significantly cheaper for the same, or better, durability. Both Purifiers and Tactical Marines have T4 and a 3+ save, but one is 50% more expensive than the other. Vanilla Terminators have widespread access to 3++, while GKs are stuck with at most a 4++ and one 2++ a squad, in assault only, where as you mentioned they already tend to kill stuff dead as it is, and even the 4++ trades off a lot of their offensive power in CC.

Did you forget that those terminators strike at I6 and with stacking hammerhands and silly grenade support? They don't need a high invulnerable save because generally there will not be enough left to fight back.

Shooting goes before I6.

But they are the undisputed best at it.

Necrons are better at it, actually. You can't stop their ability with psychic defense.

I don't understand what you think the trade off is. Not having invulnerable save on your power armor troops?

Not having directly increased durability for much more expensive troops, necessitating increased offensive power to make up for that relative fragility and the difficulty of projecting force with a limited number of units.

Having to take yucky inquisition units to spam the sh*t out of special weapons?

Inqisitorial units, in general, suck or are overrated. Regular IG is much, much better at spamming special weapons. Death Cult Assassins are kinda scary, until you feed them a sacrificial unit and/or destroy their transport then just shoot them to death.12pt scoring upgrade to Razorbacks is bad codex design, though.

The ability to fire 4 TL S8 BS4 shots from a dreadnought?

Psyrifle dreads are slightly overrated, but yes, they're underpriced.

To expand, aside from the underpriced Fortitude and Reinforced Aegis, Psybolts should be more expensive. I'd say an extra 20-30pts overall would be appropriately priced.

S7 rending heavy/assault weapons?

Since they lack all the normal heavy/assault weapons, they need something other than Storm Bolters.

GK have broken free or the disadvantages while piling on the advantages.

This is a complex point. You have to realize that upgrades tend to give diminishing returns when you start stacking them on, so you often end up with a unit that looks overpriced on paper but is actually more balanced than you might think.

The codex deserves criticism to, hopefully, prevent things like the Tau coming out with railguns that cost 5 points more for the upgrade from one shot to three.

Frankly, every codex deserves criticism. A lot of it. I think GW should take their current codex writing procedures and, instead of going straight to printing, release the rules in WD and have 3-6 months of player feedback. Then print. Of course, WD seems to have a curse on it, so maybe that's not the best idea.

You don't need to pay nearly the attention to placement with GK.

Unless you're playing a competent opponent. The movement phase is where you beat Grey Knights. I started a thread on that not too long ago.

As I mentioned, when you start paying a lot of points for a lot of upgrades you start getting diminishing returns. Each individual unit has to be very robust, as you put it, otherwise the overall army will be very underpowered. GW didn't to too bad of a job getting the balance right, though I'm not going to say they couldn't have done better.

**DrLove42** · 04-24-2012, 02:20 PM

Originally Posted by DarkLink

It's normal, until you realize that most other armie's troops are significantly cheaper for the same, or better, durability. Both Purifiers and Tactical Marines have T4 and a 3+ save, but one is 50% more expensive than the other. Vanilla Terminators have widespread access to 3++, while GKs are stuck with at most a 4++ and one 2++ a squad, in assault only, where as you mentioned they already tend to kill stuff dead as it is, and even the 4++ trades off a lot of their offensive power in CC.

Comparing Purifiers and Power Tactical Marines points costs is like comparing a Kabalite Trueborn to a Guardian. Same durability, but wildly different abilities. Purifiers wound everyone on a 4+ in combat before hand, and all have power weapons. Thats pretty good for a few extra points. They might be as durable, but they're far more offensive

Compare normal power armoured marine and power armoured GK for a fairer comparison. I don't know the points for either, but I bet their closer

Also purifiers arent troops are they? They can become troops, but theyre an elites option arent they

As for 3++ on Terminators...yeah normal marines can take a stormshield. But it limits the unit purely to CC. How do GK get their 4+? (Genuine question....I don't know). Can they still shoot when they have that save?

**Rapture** · 04-24-2012, 02:39 PM

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Originally Posted by DarkLink

That's why I've found psyrifle dreads to be a bit overrated. You need a couple to reach out and touch your opponent's backfield units, but other than that psycannons do the job while also bringing scoring, storm bolters, assault and extra bodies. Psyrifle Dreads are good at one thing and one thing only, killing light vehicles at range. If 6th ed tones down the importance of transports, then psyrifle dreads will become less common very quickly.
If.

It's normal, until you realize that most other armie's troops are significantly cheaper for the same, or better, durability. Both Purifiers and Tactical Marines have T4 and a 3+ save, but one is 50% more expensive than the other. Vanilla Terminators have widespread access to 3++, while GKs are stuck with at most a 4++ and one 2++ a squad, in assault only, where as you mentioned they already tend to kill stuff dead as it is, and even the 4++ trades off a lot of their offensive power in CC.
I forgot that Tac Marine could explode a horde by simply touching it. I would gladly pay 50% more for that. Those terminators with the piddly 5++ have access to a fast skimmer transport with assault ramp. Once they are in assault, they strike before most opponents with ID power weapons. Who needs an invulnerable save when there is nothing left to fight back? Besides, the warding stave will gladly soak up that random power fist attack.

Shooting goes before I6.
GK shoot and assault better than most other troops and they always get to assault when they finish.

Necrons are better at it, actually. You can't stop their ability with psychic defense.
What psychic defense? That is not a universal ability.

Not having directly increased durability for much more expensive troops, necessitating increased offensive power to make up for that relative fragility and the difficulty of projecting force with a limited number of units.
The best defense is a good offense, especially when reinforcements are not part of the game. Alpha strikes can dominate and, having high S and I with ID capabilities piled on top of consistent shooting (strong against both infantry and transports), GK get to repeat them (to a lesser extent) every turn.

I appreciate that you are looking at some of the rules objectively, but I am not seeing much space for argument that the book is OP and deserving of a significant amount of the hate that it draws.

**Big Jim** · 04-24-2012, 03:52 PM

If you are going to compare any unit to the SM Tac marine it would be the GK strike squad and that is a heck of a comparison.

Tac Marine comes with PA, Bolter, Bolt pistol, Frag and Krak nades. For spec rules ATSKNF, Combat squads and tactics. All for a base cost of 16pts.

GK Strike marine comes with PA, Stormbolter, Nemesis force weapon (striking as a power weapon at the worst), Psyk-out, frag and crack nades. Spec Rules ATSKNF, Combat squads, Bro of psykers, Aegis, Deepstrike, PE Daemons and two psychic powers; Hammer hand and Warp Quake. for a whopping 20pts.

Four points difference seriously WTH? Am I the only person that sees the ridiculousness of that?

The points system is a steaming pile of unbalancing poo in this codex.

**Wildcard** · 04-24-2012, 04:39 PM

Not having an invulnerable save and army wide FNP is not a disadvantage, it is normal

BA can make a pretty effective army wide FNP bubble. Also, i don't know of any other army that can get army wide 5+ inv save but orks (with a certain HQ unit). The original point to my answer was to question the stateent that the GK are highly durable: Later i was said that offensive power also counts into the durability. I see the connection, but cannot fathom how it is straight incorporated with the 'durability'..

Point with the lack of inv save was that there are weapons that can chew them, just as their power / force weapons chew others.. and there are armies that can get dodge inv saves, fnp, gear inv saves, or just smash through with huge humbers..

Did you forget that those terminators strike at I6 and with stacking hammerhands and silly grenade support? They don't need a high invulnerable save because generally there will not be enough left to fight back.

a) Hammerhand is not 100% sure (even without hoods / runes of 3d6 for psychic test) (i've gotten almost 50 / 50 the times i've rolled perils - unhindered.. And for multiple hammerhands / grenades you will gonna need a HQ unit (or techmarine), and those slots are really in high demand.. Also if we talk about terminators + HQ, thats top 6 models in a stormraven and a 6-8 models in a generally less usefull landraider variants (in the GK point of view)

b) With I6, they lose 1A, 4++ -> 5++ save, str8 / str10 hammers (not much to do with instant death, but nice against walkers / tanks)

c) Even one nob with 3 str 8 power weapon attacks either at ws4 or 5 can hurt. Ofc if there is one Guardsmen sergeant with laspistol and chainsword i wouln't be that worried..

Although there are exceptions, access to AP2 weapons is pretty limited in most cases.

I don't pretend that i know all the codexes from front to back cover..

- Imperial Guard:
AP1 & AP2
Plasma guns / cannons, possibility for huge amounts
Meltaguns / multimelta, again possible to gear up to match a supernova
Lascannons, 21x in one troop slot + vehicles (vendettas and russes). Although with company having 21 lascannons i dont know how much more points you will got left..
AP3
Krak missiles, Battlecannons, banewolf, and various artillery pieces.

- BA
AP1 & AP2
Melta pistols and melta guns and multimeltas
Plasma pistols ,plasma guns, plasma cannons
Lascannons to devs / preds / landraiders / stormraven
AP3
Krak Missiles atleast

Dont know about DA, BT, SW
Possibly atleast some variants of before mentioned..

Vanilla SM
Same song, las, plasma, melta. At reduced rate tho atleast to my understanding since if tacts need to be 10strong to get 1xspecial and 1xheavy.
AP3
KrakMissiles
Sternguard special ammo (str4 ap3), applies to all chapters?

Eldar
AP1 & AP2
Starcannons str6 ap2 ?
Fusion guns (those firedragon meltaguns)? ap1
fireprism guns ap2 / ap1?
D-cannons ap2?
missile ap3

Orks
Even though these guys seriously go to quantity over quality
Custom mega blasta str8 ap2?
missile str8 ap3
battlecannons str8 ap3
Then there are all those zzzap guns and shock attack guns and those str6 assault 2 ap d6 guns (probably with upgrades, the name of the squad just escapes my thought)

Chaos SM
again, possibilities for different plasma and melta weaponry, practically to every viable unit. Lascannons also to havocs? and preds / landraiders. (and oblits & defiler)

And so on..

Did you just say that squadrons of vehicles are an advantage? What kind of advantage allows one unit to put multiple hits on separate tanks? Extra armor does not stop stun locking.

Extra armor: Treat stunned result as shaken instead
Squadron: Treat stunned result as shaken instead, but immobilised result is instead wrecked

Stunlock to my understanding: Forcing the vehicle to remain stationary and give up shooting for one turn.
Now, depending on the enemy ofc, but even tho tank cannot fire, to be able to move (be that cover, tank shock, or just move so that enemy cant get auto hits if they assault) can mean alot against some forces, especially cc oriented.

The problem isn't that other armies don't have a trick or two (but more likely only one) of their own, but that the GK have more than most of the other combined.

My stormraven doesn't have vectored thrust engines, starengines, holotrololo-fields etc etc.. although i know those are expensive, yet everything in the eldar dex are (or so i've heard).. Its not GK dexes fault..

- BT can put machine spirit in practically any vehicle, making it nearly impossible to shut them down if not wrecked.
- Eldar tanks got alot of ways to stay save, not to forget fortune that makes them re-roll failed saves (any saves) and 2d6 and lower result in damage table or something like that
- IG got camo-nets, extra armor, smoke launchers - and quantity
- Chaos SM have extra armor,smoke launchers and demonic possession
- Orks got custom force field, that with a skill (and 2 HQ units, agreed) can create a huge 4+ cover save bubble for vehicles and 5+ cover for infantry. They got grot riggers (4+ repair of immobilised result), extra armor -equivalent. Can make some vehicles from open topped to -non open topped (notice the important impact of losing assault vehicle rule tho)
- Tau got some sort of 4+ save to everything if more than 12" away i think.

All of these are abilities that help to mitigate incoming / taken damage (and thats like half of the forces there are)

-GK: Smoke launchers, machine spirit in LR / SR, Fortitude, and that librarian stealth USR psy skill.

Then there are rules like melta wont get extra d6 for stormraven
(eldar shield: any weapon max str8, always only 1d6 armor pen)

But they are the undisputed best at it.

Well, this involves equations i cannot even begin to understand.. points vs point, who gets the charge, are we shooting first, what is happening around the calculated conflict..

Or do we just take a general look and take it for granted that GK will wipe anything any other force can deploy? If this topic is to be taken any further, it sincerely requires its own topic..

Largely available to who? IG maybe. DE? A little. Other than that it is generally either one (maybe two) per squad or heavy weapons that hold back the entire unit. Can only inflict ID in CC? Every single one of them can inflict ID in CC. Even a SM command squad with four melta guns can inflict, at most, 4 ID wounds. How many cover ignoring, I6, S6 ID wounds squad of grey knights inflict?

This i partly responded already, but some points remain.

GK with their ID forceweapons need to close the gap first. Best case scenario (against GK) is footslogger termies on an open terrain, that your lascannons could fire 4 turns in a row, if the termies kept running and rollin 6'es while going for the lascannon teams..
I dont know how much 5man devastator squad is point wise, but with 4 lascannons (one fired with signum) is 12 lascannon shots at BS4 and 4 shots with bs5 to take down 5man terminator squad requiring 3/2 to hit, 2 to wound and negating the best protection terminators got - the 2+ save. And you dont even have to finish of that squad with the lascannons. You should have plasma / melta around to do that aswell..

Again with the shooting vs cc aspect.
a) most of the time you hit better while shooting than on the cc
b) you can get more shots than just 1 round of shooting thus multiplying the amount of possible wounds inflicted (unless you are getting hot with plasma like me.. then the enemy wont even have to worry about killing those men, ill do it myself for them -_-)
c) When you shoot someone you don't (generally) have to be afraid of getting hurt yourself. When you decide its time to go to melee, unless you actually do wipe the enemy out, there is a risk of losing your own troops aswell.

GK dont have the luxury of sitting back and shooting the multiwound monsters dead.. 10man nob squad with painboy giving them 6+save, 5++ save, fnp with 2wounds each and t4 is a lot to stop with stormbolters alone. psycannons do help, but unless the shot is rending nobs still get 5++save and fnp for it (and it doesn't do ID on them, like a melta or missile would. Even plasma would deny the fnp)

Basic GKSS has 1A. 5man squad gets max 6A if charged (most likely 2 of them will be hammers). that leaves 4 attacks that hit on a 4+, wound on a 4+ (if Nemesis circuitry is activated). Thats one ID wound from the basic dudes per round (+ hammers, but still it is lileky to make 1 unsaved wound aswell)

I don't understand what you think the trade off is. Not having invulnerable save on your power armor troops? Having to take yucky inquisition units to spam the sh*t out of special weapons? The ability to fire 4 TL S8 BS4 shots from a dreadnought? S7 rending heavy/assault weapons? GK have broken free or the disadvantages while piling on the advantages. The codex deserves criticism to, hopefully, prevent things like the Tau coming out with railguns that cost 5 points more for the upgrade from one shot to three.

At first i said a post or two back: I don't count the henchmen since they dont come from titan.

Tradeoffs:
GK Interceptors: Other assault marines got 1A + 1A from 2x CCW plus 3rd from the charge. Tradeoff here is not being able to dish out that much damage in melee, yet the role is to jump around and spray with stormbolters. (I've managed to lose a whole squad to a unit of ork lootaz, and i even got the charge..)

Psyfleman: GK dont have access to devastators with STR8+ weaponry. That devastator squad got probably few extra wounds before you start losing missiles to fire. You can hide them better and get a cover save when shot with ap3 or stronger. If not pinned, even one casualty wont matter, since 3 more missiles will be fired.

Psycannon: I never said it wasn't probably a good weapon, but i never said you had to gear up all your forces with it..

The codex deserves criticism to, hopefully, prevent things like the Tau coming out with railguns that cost 5 points more for the upgrade from one shot to three.

I did quote this twice on purpose. You are absolutely correct on this matter. Yet, it must be said that it is never the game alone that is lame even if 'broken'. The players that solely try and use those things that are broken to their advantage is what makes the game unfun.

Razorback spam = truly frowned, 5-9 cheap tanks dishing out death is not cool,yet one or two razorbacks are fine?
Psycannon spam = truly frowned, 10-20 guns able to shoot 4 str7 ap4 rending shots at 24", aye, thats bad. But if one only takes one two or three?
Henchmen = 100points for HQ and then 6x 62pts for scoring psybolt razorbacks (kinda like razorback spam above, but with a twist of strawberry.. Not nice.. Yet, to take one inquisitor as a HQ, and take a squad of henchmen to go with it.. is it that bad?

Point here, generally spamming strong / op stuff is not nice. But to take only a few to support otherwise a list that is built with a great theme, or something.. It is actually fun to get those "OOO SHIIIII*" -moments while running for cover and trying to figure how to hell are you gonna deal with that..

But is it lame to take 9 Leman Russes as a IG? ( I have honestly no idea)..

**Kawauso** · 04-24-2012, 05:25 PM

Originally Posted by Big Jim

If you are going to compare any unit to the SM Tac marine it would be the GK strike squad and that is a heck of a comparison.

Tac Marine comes with PA, Bolter, Bolt pistol, Frag and Krak nades. For spec rules ATSKNF, Combat squads and tactics. All for a base cost of 16pts.

GK Strike marine comes with PA, Stormbolter, Nemesis force weapon (striking as a power weapon at the worst), Psyk-out, frag and crack nades. Spec Rules ATSKNF, Combat squads, Bro of psykers, Aegis, Deepstrike, PE Daemons and two psychic powers; Hammer hand and Warp Quake. for a whopping 20pts.

Four points difference seriously WTH? Am I the only person that sees the ridiculousness of that?

The points system is a steaming pile of unbalancing poo in this codex.

See here's the thing with regard to that comparison, though...

Strike Squads are really easy to kill. Like, seriously easy. They're no more durable than Tacticals, and those extra 4 points per model really do add up. 2 barebone troop choices from either army come in at 340 pts for vanilla Marines and 400 for GK. The regular Marines can add 2 Rhinos and that makes them just a tiny bit more expensive than the GK. And the Tac squad has special weapon options at 10-man size that are free.

Strike Squads are easy to kill with shooting. If you can kill regular marines with it, you can kill PA GK with it. And the GK will have a -lot- less bodies in a full army list.

Yeah they all have power weapons, but they're actually not good in assault due to having only 1 attack. If you get the charge on them, you still have a chance of doing pretty well even with Tactical Marines (which is something I've done before, multiple times). The unit's strength is in shooting (since it can cause more wounds that way, at a constant 24" if need be). But if you can get up close and double-tap them, maybe get in their with a few special weapons, or charge the unit and tie them up in combat for a while, you can whittle them down pretty easily.

I don't think Strike Squads are poorly costed at all. There certainly are things in the GK book that are too cheap, but their bog-standard troops are not one of those things.

**graybrother** · 04-24-2012, 05:40 PM

Grey Knights won both the team tournament and the 40k Championships this weekend at Adepticon. I played against them in the last round of the Team Tournament. That list was incredibly abusive and no fun to play against, but I can't complain. All of my team are pretty competative players.

**graybrother** · 04-24-2012, 05:48 PM

Originally Posted by DarkLink

Which is ironic because the game is currently more balanced than it's been in a very long time. Whine about Grey Knights all you want, they're not exactly sweeping the tournament scene's top tiers.

They won both the team tourney and championships at Adepticon this past weekend. I played GK 4 games out of 8.

**Cuddy** · 04-24-2012, 05:55 PM