Do Grey Knights Deserve the Hate?

[Kawauso]

Simple 6ed fix I'd like to see:

Units with grenades may only use one type of grenade each turn and may not use defensive grenades if already locked in combat.

Change 'defensive' to 'any', otherwise GK still toss out psychotroke grenades in locked combat...heh.

[Defenestratus]

and may not use defensive grenades if already locked in combat.

pg 36 BRB. If a unit is already locked in combat or gone to ground, then they cannot use defensive grenades.

[celestialatc]

pg 36 BRB. If a unit is already locked in combat or gone to ground, then they cannot use defensive grenades.

Since Rad and Psychotropic Grenades are not specifically defensive grenades I don't think the restrictions for defensive grenades applies.

[Defenestratus]

Since Rad and Psychotropic Grenades are not specifically defensive grenades I don't think the restrictions for defensive grenades applies.

I don't know about those, but he specifically stated 'defensive' grenades in his wish list :-)

[isotope99]

I don't know about those, but he specifically stated 'defensive' grenades in his wish list :-)

This is exactly the sort of thing I think needs tightening up in the 6ed definitions with more general coverage. For me, anything used in your opponents turn should be a defensive grenade, anything in your turn an offensive grenade (dual use grenades would be both).

This may even be the intention but with loosely worded rules, these kinds of issues always crop up. The intention of tjhe rule defenestratus quopted looks like it was intended to stop grenades activating when charging an already engaged unit but the situation isn't clear leading to disagreements or OP interpretations (which may well be correct on a strict reading).

[inquisitorsog]

How is that any different from my point? If GKs were an auto-win button, then GKs would sweep all the top spots at all the tournaments because any average player could show up and beat the veterans of other armies easily. GKs have become popular, but they're not actually winning more tournaments than Space Wolves or other top codices.

1) I didn't say "autowin". I said "over powered". There's a vast gulf of difference between the two. Over powered is using a 12 gauge shot gun to shoot tin cans 10' away. Autowin is dropping a nuke to do the same.
2) It is entirely possible that a list is capable of beating 90% of any other lists played by any other player, but still frequently lose to lists played by the top 10% of players. If it beats 90% of players 90% of the time , then it's probably over powered. That the players who live and breathe the game can successfully counter it doesn't change that. It just means it is not, as you say, autowin. You still need to play effectively and there may be some tactics out there to counter it that some folks aren't sharing because they want their own competitive advantage.

[MattHoell]

I'd wait to know the percentage of players bring GKs to adepticon before declaring them op because of the results. Heck, I'd wait to actually see the top ten places from pure battlepoints. As far as I know, so far they've only released the best general and the overall placings.

I guess you missed this

[url]http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2012/04/40k-meta-what-weve-become.html[/url]

Out of the top 16 players half was Grey Knights, in the next round they were 4 out of the 8 and in the Semi's 2 out of the 4, with GKs going to win the whole thing.

Oh and GK also won the Team Tournament.

And the Necron codex has been out for 6 months (10/20) . I think they would be considered more than the new flavor over the GK which have been out for almost a year?

[MattHoell]

This is exactly the sort of thing I think needs tightening up in the 6ed definitions with more general coverage. For me, anything used in your opponents turn should be a defensive grenade, anything in your turn an offensive grenade (dual use grenades would be both).

This may even be the intention but with loosely worded rules, these kinds of issues always crop up. The intention of tjhe rule defenestratus quopted looks like it was intended to stop grenades activating when charging an already engaged unit but the situation isn't clear leading to disagreements or OP interpretations (which may well be correct on a strict reading).

My change to grenades would be as followed.

In any assault phase a model may use one type of grenade/bomb for free. If a model gives up all it's attacks it may use a second grenade/bomb. Any model wishing to use a grenade/bomb must be engaged in combat (ie IC must be in base to base).

Not only does this stop the GK nade belt, but makes things like giving sgt. with PF and melta bombs almost work while.

[DarkLink]

I guess you missed this

I posted before that was put up.

Out of the top 16 players half was Grey Knights, in the next round they were 4 out of the 8 and in the Semi's 2 out of the 4, with GKs going to win the whole thing.

But was it like at the end of day 1, where 5 of those GK players were 11-16? Like I said, GKs are a top tier codex and a very popular army, as you just pointed out, and with such massive overrepresentation there will be a lot relatively high in the rankings. But when you get to the top ten, suddenly there are Necrons, IG, Space Wolves, Orks and I think Eldar all there. I don't know what the final standings are exactly, but I would still be very hesitant to make a claim that GKs are overpowered from such sparse and shaky evidence.

GKs are too popular for their own good, but they're not actually overpowered against most other competitive armies.

And the Necron codex has been out for 6 months (10/20) . I think they would be considered more than the new flavor over the GK which have been out for almost a year?

But people haven't adopted the Necron codex yet, for whatever reason. DE made a much bigger impact, and even DE aren't the most common army to this day.

[MattHoell]

I'm not sure what else you are looking for??

Here's something things to chew on.

In my area, before the 5th edition dex, there weren't nearly as many GK players. When the BA, IG and SW codexes came out most the players were existing players dusting off old armies. While these armies had some new players not nearly as high a percentage as GKs. An easy way to support this is look at the armies, many BA, IG and SW armies tend to have mostly previous addition models, with some of the newer stuff like Valks and Thunderwolves. How often do you see metal Gks on the table.

This explosion in players definitely has something to do with GK power level.

Next, (I know this is no a great argument), but look across the web to see how much time is devoted to this topic on other forums and blogs, no codex has ever received this much hate.

Finally as many people have stated, I just don't find them fun to play against. I have been playing 40k for over a decade and this is the first army I have felt that way. Part of playing the game is having fun, and part of that is winning and losing, but you have to have a shot at winning.

I consider myself a pretty good player, I have won many tournaments, but I don't feel I have a shot at winning a game vs GKs. I don't feel this way about IG, BA or SWs.