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  1. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildeybeast View Post
    I will deal with this last one though. I'll admit I don't know much about Eastern philosophy but I'm going to go out on limb and suggest that Confucianism probaby doesn't advocate nicking other people's stuff and selling it for a profit yourself. Beacuse that is what we are talking about, not monoplisation of ideas. Lets not forget that this is theft of other peoples' stuff by people who have no interest in furthering the hobby.

    I find it staggering that there are so many people who unable/unwilling to see that by supporting pirates, they are damaging the hobby. Beacuse the pirates aren't doing this in some misguided quest for 'justice' because GW charges Australians too much. They are doing it beacuse GW are the biggest fish and therefore more people will buy their stuff. If the likes of PP or Reaper or any other of the 'non-evil' companies suddenly starts selling by the bucket load, the pirates will target them too and take them for everything they can until all the original model makers are put out of business and the hobby we love will be dead. Or, people could just buy legit models and the pirates will go and pick another industry to ruin.
    I think you missed my point. The monopolization of ideas, Intellectual Property Rights as understood in western civilization, is viewed as immoral. There is a firm belief that intellectual property belongs to everyone, not just the one who initially created it. They don't view it as stealing anything because there is no physical theft. The idea of intellectual theft is antithesis to their beliefs. You can't steal what is believed to belong to everyone. They are creating something, a copy of something, but they are still creating a physical copy of something and thus don't understand what the problem is. The ideas of intellectual property are starting to spread in some circles in China, but it isn't mainstream.

    The company is making non-Gw stuff as well. Historicals are a rather large market and arguably those sales lost hurt those smaller boutique companies a great deal more than GW's potential lost sales. I'm not saying I don't disagree with the current global status quo with recasters, because it is a problem and not sustainable for companies in the West. What I'm trying to do is create an understanding for why it is this behavior is so prevalent in Eastern cultures and why those governments and peoples don't see a reason to convert their beliefs to western ones. What is happening is the friction of different cultural groups brought on by globalization. I think it would be far more productive to try and find a common ground by which both cultural groups could find compromise regarding intellectual property, but that is far beyond the means of those within a niche hobby community. The best option for those of us in the western world to address the current incompatibilities of eastern and western cultures & economies is to not participate in those sales. I won't buy, support, or inform others where and how to do business with the recasters in China or Russia because it hurts those who make products within the rules of the western world, but I'm not going to demonize the recasters for having fundamentally different belief systems, economic systems, governments, and laws either.

  2. #112

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    Quote Originally Posted by Captainparty View Post

    Many of you choose to daemonise GW because you can't afford their products in the quanitity you'd like. This isn't thier fault, its yours and is entirely in your control. You can either choose not to want thier products or aquire more wealth, you are free to do that.
    Wow, so much simple minded bull here. It's staggering.
    "But I tell you, we were gods once, and we shall be gods again". - In defense of the future: a Logical Discourse.

  3. #113
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    Why hasn't this thread been locked yet? It sounds like something from warseer, which is kind of ironic, because warseer probably would have deleted immediately.
    I am the Hammer. I am the right hand of my Emperor. I am the tip of His spear, I am the gauntlet about His fist. I am the woes of daemonkind. I am the Hammer.

  4. #114

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    well if jes goodwin is shocked that people dont care about gw's employees enough to spend up to 1000 dollars on a 2000 point wargaming army, hes in for a rude shock.

    no one truely cares for gw, all they care about is gw hanging around keeping the hobby alive so that our thousand dollar investments in our entertainment dont seem like a true waste of money.

    someone pm me this chinese web address please, cant find it anywere :P

    (remember guys, look after yourself and you're neighbour, because gw is not gonna keep a roof over you're head or put food in your belly, there in it for themselves and care nothing for you, as long as stock moves, there profits are happy)

    I have always supported gw by buying there products, but the recent prices on the new and current things are to harsh, 90AUD for 3 wolves??? what a joke, heres another joke for you, 'its ok, buy standins from a more affordable system', HELLO you cant play non gw models in any of there official comps, events ro stores.

  5. #115
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    Hardly a waste of space. The discussion involves philosophy, economics, morals, and how all of these things relate to a current situation that is affecting something that many of us care very deeply about (GW/'the hobby'). Calling it a 'warseer' thread is a blatant attempt to skew opinions.

    Fuzzyguy specified what needed to be said regarding morals pretty well. The ultimate good/bad argument can be entirely cultural.

    While people may have a problem understanding why China allows this 'piracy,' consider the alternative. The US is so heavily favors the creators of certain things that they become untouchable. Think about Microsoft's approach to software. The company sells licenses instead of the actual product. Even for an honest, normal user this can lead to endless headaches. DRM methods for music and DVDs can also seriously limit the honest enjoyment of the consumer. It is easy to blame pirates for the security measure, but, as has been quite controversial in this thread, it is the responsibility of the producer to respond to threats and keep the product enjoyable.

  6. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by fuzzyguy View Post
    On the subject of intellectual property rights and moral high ground, I'd recommend folks remember to think beyond their own respective cultures. It seems the vast majority of the people posting are from some form of western cultural position. Collectivism is quite prevalent in eastern and middle eastern cultures. Confucianism actually advocates that the monopolization of an idea is immoral and abhorrent, for example. Calling the belief systems of another people backwards or worse is a rather nasty slippery slope with plenty of history to show where the end of that very tragic and unfortunate path leads. Demonizing those who disagree with you or hold different belief systems than you will not win them or others over to your train of thought, quite the opposite actually.

    Just some food for thought.
    This argument applies a lot more to "casual" pirates, rather than career pirates. If I've got a scanner and an internet connection and I decide to share my collection of codices, or if I've got a 3d printer and a graphics program and I decide to share my GW-inspired (or completely ripped off) printer recipes, or whatever - that's collectivism. I am sharing a resource (GW products) with my community (like-minded people on the Internet). Someone who rips off GW's IP to make a buck for themselves, taking advantage of other people... that's not collectivism. There's no collective benefit. That's a dude trying to make a buck by ripping off someone else's hard work. In other words: still just capitalism.

    Can you tell that I have some sympathy for casual pirates and none for IP thieves? I don't download books myself, unless I already own them and electronic copies are not also available for sale, but I understand why someone would, and it's a lot less despicable than making money off someone else's hard work.

  7. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by fuzzyguy View Post
    I think you missed my point. The monopolization of ideas, Intellectual Property Rights as understood in western civilization, is viewed as immoral. There is a firm belief that intellectual property belongs to everyone, not just the one who initially created it. They don't view it as stealing anything because there is no physical theft. The idea of intellectual theft is antithesis to their beliefs. You can't steal what is believed to belong to everyone. They are creating something, a copy of something, but they are still creating a physical copy of something and thus don't understand what the problem is. The ideas of intellectual property are starting to spread in some circles in China, but it isn't mainstream.

    The company is making non-Gw stuff as well. Historicals are a rather large market and arguably those sales lost hurt those smaller boutique companies a great deal more than GW's potential lost sales. I'm not saying I don't disagree with the current global status quo with recasters, because it is a problem and not sustainable for companies in the West. What I'm trying to do is create an understanding for why it is this behavior is so prevalent in Eastern cultures and why those governments and peoples don't see a reason to convert their beliefs to western ones. What is happening is the friction of different cultural groups brought on by globalization. I think it would be far more productive to try and find a common ground by which both cultural groups could find compromise regarding intellectual property, but that is far beyond the means of those within a niche hobby community. The best option for those of us in the western world to address the current incompatibilities of eastern and western cultures & economies is to not participate in those sales. I won't buy, support, or inform others where and how to do business with the recasters in China or Russia because it hurts those who make products within the rules of the western world, but I'm not going to demonize the recasters for having fundamentally different belief systems, economic systems, governments, and laws either.
    I understand the point your are making, though I would argue that the line between taking somebody else's property to sell and making a direct copy of somebody else's property for your own personal gain is a pretty thin one. You could also argue that whilst this sort of practice might be more acceptable in eastern cultures, if we are making a case for 'cultural understanding' then surely the onus is on eastern cultures to respect the values and laws of the cultures from which the product originates? And whilst I respect your attempt to put a different slant on this discussion, lets be clear that the stance of the Chinese government (and the pirates who they refuse to stop) has nothing to do with cultural ideas about IP. It is entirely about promoting Chinese business at the expense of foreign ones, not to mention giving a massive FU to the rest of the world and making it clear that China doesn't give a stuff international opinion or laws.
    Chief Educator of the Horsemen of Derailment "People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought, which they avoid." SOREN KIERKEGAARD

  8. #118

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    Quote Originally Posted by eldargal View Post

    Chuck, giving money to criminals who destroy legitimate businesses is immoral. Saying that there are only decisions and consequences is a cheap copout for people who don't want to admit that the consequences of their actions will have a negative impact on other people who have done nothing to harm them in return. The logic just doesn't hold, try applying it to other crimes. Murder isn't immoral because someone dying is just a consequence of someone deciding ot put a bullet through their head.
    People would not entertain the thought of going to China for models if they felt GW was giving them a fair shake. I would never buy from China but I fully understand why many devoted fans are doing so.

    Morality has connotations of good and evil, saintly and wickedness. Murder and rape are matters of morality. Choosing to buy knock off models from China is not.

    There is zero difference in my mind between buying from China or buying from Mantic when the end result is you not purchasing GW models while still playing GW games. You are negatively impacting other people's lives by virtue of your lack of support for GW. The only difference between the two is that one gives Chinese people jobs and the other gives (the wrong) British people jobs.



    Quote Originally Posted by eldargal View Post
    As to the point about 3D printers, that is delusional. You might as well argue that coffee machines will kill cafes.
    The recording industry had the same attitude about MP3s - no one will want digital versions of their songs, CD's are the bee's knees. The same thing will be true once 3-D printing really takes off. You think its immoral for a company in China to make knock off GW models, wait until your neighbors are creating whole armies for virtually nothing.

    Also, the Coffee Machines killing Cafes is the wrong kind of analogy since the latter provides a service and a place to drink. GW models by themselves do not do that. A more apt analogy would be the growth of internet news, which has completely decimated News Papers. Democratizing the process inevitably kills the older business model. Planning and forethought allow you to escape the trap that is the future.

  9. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildeybeast View Post
    I understand the point your are making, though I would argue that the line between taking somebody else's property to sell and making a direct copy of somebody else's property for your own personal gain is a pretty thin one.
    Where that line lays is wholly dependent upon the culture of the one who draws it, and if you don't see that then I don't think you really do understand the point I am making.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wildeybeast View Post
    You could also argue that whilst this sort of practice might be more acceptable in eastern cultures, if we are making a case for 'cultural understanding' then surely the onus is on eastern cultures to respect the values and laws of the cultures from which the product originates?
    The inability and unwillingness of the West to want to even recognize the legitimacy of the cultural difference is the problem. The west went to China looking for trade and colonial expansion, not the other way around. The onus is on the west to accommodate the belief systems of those they wish to trade with. Xenophobia and Ethnocentrism is alive and well even in post-colonial western civilizations and is seen even now by those in power trying to forcibly convert the east to western ideals. This is nothing new and has been going on for thousands of years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wildeybeast View Post
    And whilst I respect your attempt to put a different slant on this discussion, lets be clear that the stance of the Chinese government (and the pirates who they refuse to stop) has nothing to do with cultural ideas about IP. It is entirely about promoting Chinese business at the expense of foreign ones, not to mention giving a massive FU to the rest of the world and making it clear that China doesn't give a stuff international opinion or laws.
    Do Western governments not promote and bolster their own businesses and industries over foreign ones historically? You continue to refer to them as pirates, "Pirate" implies criminal intent, and theft of persons and physical possessions. This is not what they are doing within their culture, and accusing them of such by those in the west at all levels does nothing to genuinely open dialogue when they are already on the defensive. My argument wasn't specifically about China, it encompassed India, Pakistan, Iran, China, Russia, most of Eastern Europe, and a great deal of Native American peoples. Anti-china xenophobia does nothing to address the cultural issue. China has good reason to be suspicious of international law considering what the longest surviving culture in the world has had to do to preserve itself from British, French, Dutch, Russian, Korean, and Japanese invasion and colonial attempts. Government policies will generally reflect the belief structures of those under their care. There is a genuine opportunity to reach a middle ground in China for example with the prevalence of wholly digital property. There is some common understanding being made on that ground, and I hope that the frictional history between east and west doesn't get in the way of differing peoples coming to a compromised understanding and agreement to the necessity of respect to I.P. that will benefit everyone. At the end of the day, if nothing is resolved, the only solution is to cease open trade with countries that don't adhere to compatible belief and legal structures.

    BTW, thanks Wildeybeast for the discussion so far. I think open, respectful, and civil discussion online is rare. I thoroughly appreciate that we can have disagreements and discussion without being disagreeable.
    Last edited by fuzzyguy; 04-30-2012 at 04:16 PM. Reason: Further clarrification.

  10. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by fuzzyguy View Post
    Where that line lays is wholly dependent upon the culture of the one who draws it, and if you don't see that then I don't think you really do understand the point I am making.
    Indeed it is, which is why i didn't commit to where the line should be drawn, merely pointed out it is very fine one, depending on which side of it you stand.


    Quote Originally Posted by fuzzyguy View Post
    Do Western governments not promote and bolster their own businesses and industries over foreign ones historically?
    Indeed they do, but they generally intevene, or at least offer a method of legal resolution, when one company nicks anothers stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by fuzzyguy View Post
    You continue to refer to them as pirates, "Pirate" implies criminal intent, and theft of persons and physical possessions.
    Not according to the OED it doesn't. At least not just that.

    noun

    1 [mass noun] the practice of attacking and robbing ships at sea.
    a practice similar to piracy but in other contexts, especially hijacking: air piracy

    2the unauthorized use or reproduction of another’s work: software piracy

    Quote Originally Posted by fuzzyguy View Post
    This is not what they are doing within their culture, and accusing them of such by those in the west at all levels does nothing to genuinely open dialogue when they are already on the defensive.
    And if these people were geniunely interested in opening dialogue and defending what they do on a cultural basis, you would have a point. They aren't beacuse they are criminals and know full what they are doing is wrong. They just don't care and to suggest otherwise is at best naive.


    Quote Originally Posted by fuzzyguy View Post
    My argument wasn't specifically about China, it encompassed India, Pakistan, Iran, China, Russia, most of Eastern Europe, and a great deal of Native American peoples. Anti-china xenophobia does nothing to address the cultural issue. China has good reason to be suspicious of international law considering what the longest surviving culture in the world has had to do to preserve itself from British, French, Dutch, Russian, Korean, and Japanese invasion and colonial attempts.
    I know it wasn't but we are talking about piracy in China. In most other countries GW would have legal recourse to stop them, in China they don't. This isn't anit China xenophobia, this is China blatantly flautning international law. And before you get on your high horse about China being invaded about western powers, go have a chat to people in Tibet to find out what they think about Chinese foreign policy. China has been sinned against by the west, but are from innocent.

    Quote Originally Posted by fuzzyguy View Post
    Government policies will generally reflect the belief structures of those under their care.
    You are using that argument in conversation about China?


    Quote Originally Posted by fuzzyguy View Post
    There is a genuine opportunity to reach a middle ground in China for example with the prevalence of wholly digital property. There is some common understanding being made on that ground, and I hope that the frictional history between east and west doesn't get in the way of differing peoples coming to a compromised understanding and agreement to the necessity of respect to I.P. that will benefit everyone. At the end of the day, if nothing is resolved, the only solution is to cease open trade with countries that don't adhere to compatible belief and legal structures.
    There is no middle ground to be reached. Either an individual/company/country respects international IP law or they don't. Either you have the right to protect and own something you create or you don't. How can there possibly be middle ground in that? 'You might sort of own something unless somebody's culture suggests that in fact nobody owns anything in which case we should respect their cultural differences and let them do what they want with the stuff you make?'


    Edit
    Quote Originally Posted by fuzzyguy View Post
    BTW, thanks Wildeybeast for the discussion so far. I think open, respectful, and civil discussion online is rare. I thoroughly appreciate that we can have disagreements and discussion without being disagreeable.
    As do I! It is good to know that we can have heated and passionate debate without the need for it to get personal and still respect each other's views even if we don't agree. Glad we are on the same page!
    Last edited by Wildeybeast; 04-30-2012 at 04:39 PM.
    Chief Educator of the Horsemen of Derailment "People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought, which they avoid." SOREN KIERKEGAARD

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