Empire Hordes and Buses Versus Bricks

[timff8]

Hi all

I'm working some new Empire lists, and trying to figure out a stance on units in general.

Taking a big horde/bus of State Troops (pick your poison; I prefer Spearmen in a Bus, and Halberdiers in a horde) is great, and I personally insist on one at every points level.

In bulking up my front line, should I be constructing more Hordes or Busses, or do tough bricks of units such as Greatswords and Flagellants work as well? I don't want to be playing one horde/bus after another, is my point. Is bookending them with bricks of tougher troops viable, or should I be putting my points entirely into masses of expendable mans?

All the best,

Timff8

[Annum]

Hey,
Just an idea I've been playing around with lately, depending on what army I'm playing, I'm going for swordsmen bus units, as they are just that little bit tougher to break down than other core units, generally I take 34(5 wide, 7 deep) with a BSB with a defensive item and give the unit the standard of discipline. You then have a unit with ld 9 with re rolls on 3d6 taking lowest 2.....not easy to break so long as the BSB is still around.

On the brick front I've been going with Greatswords mainly for the strength and all important stubborn rule, they are quite expensive but so difficult to play against, throw in a warrior priest and a witch hunter and you have hatred, stubborn with MR2. I've used these tactics a few times now and they work really well, providing a solid centre to your army.

Anyway hope this helps!

[Wildeybeast]

I really like annum's idea, I run something pretty similar, backed up by two 15 strong detachments. I can't emphasise enough how gret warrior priests are in these sort of units. I like a nice chunky block of 20-30 greatswords alongside them and back it all up with luminark of hysh to give you a ward save and some of the extra combat prowess lore of light gives you. Though the +1 to hit from a celestial hurricanum is pretty useful too.

[Chronowraith]

In general I've found the hurricanium to be the more useful of the wizard-mobiles. The ward save from the luminark is easily duplicated through magic or prayers.

That being said, I've had success taking two units of spearmen as buses and then their detachments of halberdiers as hordes. I usually run my spearmen in units of 40 and max out the detachments.

As for deployment, that all depends on the rest of your army. If you have some solid units then yes.. you can book end them, run your buses up the middle and try and outflank with your hammer units. If you only have a single solid hammer unit then you can load the center or try a refused flank where you deploy on one side of the table and thus your opponent can't outflank you on one of your flanks. That tactic can create problems for horde armies though... so caveat emptor.

[timff8]

[To clarify, I am COMPLETELY UNINTERESTED in any comments not related to this issue: are blocks (20-30 in a square formation) of tough troops a viable alternative to hordes of State Troops?]

How many hordes/busses then would you say would suffice before I could bookend them with blocks of Greatswords?

[Chronowraith]

Again, that depends on the point level of the game. I'd say a minimum of 1 bus per 1000 points though.

As per your main issue, what is your definition of "tough troops"? Greatswords aren't an alternative for state troops because they aren't core. Swordsmen are tough(er) than most state troops and make good buses but they are largely a defensive unit unless you are facing off against T3 opponents.

As for your comment about being uninterested in comments that don't relate to your own issues... welcome to a forum... you start the thread and then people have side discussions. Welcome to the internet.

[timff8]

Okay then.

Well.... Fantasy isn't 40k. I dont NEED my big blocks O mans to be from the Core section. I just need to spend 25% of my army on Core, and that CAN be blocks O mans, but it could also be spent on knights (IC or regular) or Crossbowmen.
Asuming that I have my 25% or Core covered, I mean, can Greatswords be a subsitute for say, a block of Halberdiers?
Swordsmen are in a tough spot now, I think. Halberdiers are out and out the "offensive" state troop, and spearmen are relegated to being the "bus" state troop. Swordsmen are interesting, because you have to weigh them against Spearman, because RARELY is that WS 4 going to help you be more offensive. Rather, it's an issue of whether or not it's worth it to pay 2 points per model for +1 WS, +1 AS, and a parry save, and lose an extra rank of attacks. The +1 WS is of no use in dealing more damage, but rather stops many other mans from hitting your mans on 3+. I think they CAN be of use in that regard, but in a pinch, the spearmen work just fine, and I have 40 Spearmen, not 40 Swordsmen, so my mind is made up for me.

Well.... let me say I would PREFER if comments refer to the specific question I posted. I posted a question; I did not start and Empire Tactica thread, if you will. I don't need someone to say Warrior Priests are good; we all KNOW they are good. I don't need a debate on the luminarch versus the Hurricanum; the +1 to Hit is a very solid bonus, and the 6+ Ward save is easy to duplicate with other things you will already be taking (Warrior Priests, Lore of Light/Life). The bolt thrower shot is... okay. Cannons do it better. The blast that the Hurricanum does, however, is NOT done all that better by anything we have. We have other blasts, but they are Strength:3. And failing that, you can have a silly side-effect. Plus, the +1 PD is a free prayer or spell. Wee!

[Chronowraith]

I'd still say that greatswords are not a viable alternative to state troops. They cost considerably more points and they die just as readily as the other state troops. Technically, swordsmen are more survivable than greatswords and that is why you want the state troops... warm bodies (well, until they die).

[Skeith154]

dude you more or less did start an empire tactics thread. it's only natural they would talk about other empire units. so tone down the attitude cause it's not gonna do much but incite people. now. that aside.. what about units of flagellents? i hear they are actually stronger then greatswords (covered in another thread) i don't suppose having a bunch of unbreakable troops who basically buff themselves, would be any any interest to you in a large block or two.

[timff8]

@Chronowraith:
Swordsmen have the advantage of a parry save, but only against thr front facing, and often you are still going to scrape a 6+ save out of the Greatswords. The main reason I think they work is because they have Stubborn on their own, without the need to out-rank the enemy, and because their detachments can be really annoying little speed-bumps.

@Skeith:
I started a thread with a particular topic, though. It doesn't help me to hear things that aren't pertaining to that topic. There are a jillion OTHER empire threads that are not about the merits of big blocks of beefy guys as an alternative to hordes and busses. They can post there.
I don't particularly like flagellants. I love the concept, but... eh.... Greatswords are suvivable(er), and have a great benefit to pass out to their detachments. Flagellants can't take detachments, can lose their Frenzy now, and require a heaping helping of them to be much useful.