Survey on the use of Army Builder for Tournaments, major and minor

[Chris Copeland]

Follow up: I've never seen it banned... that seems a bit silly. Why would a TO do that?

[chromedog]

1. Were you a T.O. or a participant? I've been both.

2. Were Army Builder lists mandatory, preferred, or not required? Some had AB to be NOT used (TO didn't have AB), others just had it as Not required. Lists needed to be correct and legible and printed, nothing more. Formats usually accepted at most events consist of .xls, .doc, .txt, .rtf OR AB lists

3. How did you feel about the response to #2? Don't have a problem. I can use a spreadsheet, text editor or AB to build my army and it adds up correctly. Yes, AB has a simpler click to add unit functionality and a very customisable output, but nothing that you can't do with a little work with another tool.

4. Did you find that Army Builder lists made things easier, harder, or no change? Please explain. As a TO, it made verifying lists for certain events so much easier. I still used it in combination with the codex (as intended) and if it threw up issues, then I checked against codex. As a player, I generally use a spreadsheet and codex anyway.

5. Do you think there should a standard in tournaments for list submission? Army Builder, must be typed, no handwritten...etc. What works best for you as a player, or as a T.O.? A standard of legible and typed/printed with the arithmetic correct would be nice. As it is, I can't count on my local fellow gamers to get the last one right so some form of tool to make it easier to check is always good.

[DarkLink]

The abbreviated format is slightly (slightly) better, but it's still crap.

: Honour Guard (6#, 470 pts)
. . 1 Librarian in Power Armour, 175 pts = (base cost 100) + Jump Pack 25 + Epistolary 50
. . 1 Honour Guard, 30 pts + Chapter Banner 30
. . . . 1 Sanguinary Novitiate, 23 pts
. . . . 1 Honour Guard, 68 pts = (base cost 23 + Power Fist x1 25 + Storm Shield x1 20)
. . . . 1 Honour Guard, 53 pts = (base cost 23 + Meltagun x1 10 + Storm Shield x1 20)
. . . . 1 Honour Guard, 68 pts = (base cost 23 + Power Fist x1 25 + Storm Shield x1 20)
. . . . 1 Honour Guard, 53 pts = (base cost 23 + Meltagun x1 10 + Storm Shield x1 20)

I can't tell what's going on in this unit. Are there 6 Honor Guard and a Librarian? Are there 6 models total? I really can't tell. I literally had to pull out my own copy of the BA codex and look it up. And why are the Honor Guard and Librarian listed as the same unit under Honor Guard, when they are separate units and the Librarian is the one that unlocks the Honor Guard?

Why is the cost of every single possible thing listed? I don't need to know that, any of it. I just want to know the total cost of the unit, and because these two separate units are lumped together I can't even do that.

This is what this should look like:

Librarian, Jump Pack, Epistolary (175)

5 Honor Guard (295)
-Sanguinary Novitiate
-2x Power Fist/Storm Shield
-2x Meltagun/Storm Shield

That I can actually read. I can take one quick glance at it, and know everything that I could ever want to know about what's in the unit. If I need to know any more than that, like special rules or statlines, I can look at the codex. Anything more complex than what I have listed is too much.

Troops: Death Company (11#, 355 pts)
. . 1 Reclusiarch in Power Armour, 155 pts = (base cost 130) + Jump Pack 25
. . 1 Death Company, 0 pts
. . . . 1 Death Company, 20 pts
. . . . 1 Death Company, 20 pts
. . . . 1 Death Company, 20 pts
. . . . 1 Death Company, 20 pts
. . . . 1 Death Company, 20 pts
. . . . 1 Death Company, 20 pts
. . . . 1 Death Company, 20 pts
. . . . 1 Death Company, 20 pts
. . . . 1 Death Company, 20 pts
. . . . 1 Death Company, 20 pts

Again, WTF is up with this entry? Why are all 10 Death Company listed separately? Why is the Reclusiarch in the same unit entry? Aren't they separate units? And what's with the 1 Death Company, 0 pts? What's going on!?

It should look like this:


Rechlusiarch, Jump Pack (155pts)

10 Death Company (200pts)

That's it. That's everything. It's readable, I can actually tell what's going on with the unit, and I can do it at a glance.




So, yeah, I hate armybuilder. Someone should take a tech writing class and revise the armybuilder output so that it's actually readable.

[Defenestratus]

Your complaints are trivial and completely arbitrary based on personal preference.

The reason that those units are individually listed is because they can be individually configured. Every model can be different.

As for why the reclusiarch is included - is because I dragged him into the unit. He could appear separately if I wanted, its just the way that I put it since they all ride in the Storm Raven by itself.

Also the output relies heavily on the way that the data file is written - which the developers of AB cannot by contract control.

And I'll let Colen know that he should take a tech writing class. I'm sure he'll get a hoot out of that.

[Defenestratus]

I've cleaned up my roster for you since you're so nitpicky about things. I've also proven my point about the death company configuration and why your solution of "10 death company" would never work. Also you say that you don't want to see point totals. I do. I don't trust anyone, especially tournament players, so having point totals on the sheet is much better than not. Plus there's "model list" output if you don't care about points.

2000 Pts - Blood Angels Roster - Storm Ravens Swoop 2k

Total Roster Cost: 2275

HQ: Librarian in Power Armour (1#, 175 pts)
. . 1 Librarian in Power Armour, 175 pts = (base cost 100) + Jump Pack 25 + Epistolary 50

HQ: Reclusiarch in Power Armour (1#, 155 pts)
. . 1 Reclusiarch in Power Armour, 155 pts = (base cost 130) + Jump Pack 25

: Honour Guard (5#, 295 pts)
. . 1 Honour Guard, 30 pts + Chapter Banner 30
. . . . 1 Sanguinary Novitiate, 23 pts
. . . . 1 Honour Guard, 68 pts = (base cost 23 + Power Fist x1 25 + Storm Shield x1 20)
. . . . 1 Honour Guard, 53 pts = (base cost 23 + Meltagun x1 10 + Storm Shield x1 20)
. . . . 1 Honour Guard, 68 pts = (base cost 23 + Power Fist x1 25 + Storm Shield x1 20)
. . . . 1 Honour Guard, 53 pts = (base cost 23 + Meltagun x1 10 + Storm Shield x1 20)

Troops: Assault Squad (10#, 240 pts)
. . 7 Assault Squad, 126 pts = 7 * 18
. . . . 1 Assault Marine with Meltagun, 28 pts = (base cost 18 + Meltagun 10)
. . . . 1 Assault Marine with Meltagun, 28 pts = (base cost 18 + Meltagun 10)
. . . . 1 Sergeant, 58 pts = (base cost 28) + Thunder Hammer x1 30

Troops: Assault Squad (10#, 225 pts)
. . 7 Assault Squad, 126 pts = 7 * 18
. . . . 1 Assault Marine with Flamer, 23 pts = (base cost 18 + Flamer 5)
. . . . 1 Assault Marine with Flamer, 23 pts = (base cost 18 + Flamer 5)
. . . . 1 Sergeant, 53 pts = (base cost 28) + Power Fist x1 25

Troops: Death Company (10#, 480 pts)
. . 1 Death Company, 0 pts
. . . . 1 Death Company, 45 pts = (base cost 20 + Power Fist 25)
. . . . 1 Death Company, 55 pts = (base cost 20 + Hand Flamer 10 + Power Fist 25)
. . . . 1 Death Company, 65 pts = (base cost 20 + Infernus Pistol 15 + Thunder Hammer 30)
. . . . 1 Death Company, 60 pts = (base cost 20 + Plasma Pistol 15 + Power Fist 25)
. . . . 1 Death Company, 50 pts = (base cost 20 + Power Weapon 15 + Power Weapon 15)
. . . . 1 Death Company, 20 pts
. . . . 1 Death Company, 60 pts = (base cost 20 + Hand Flamer 10 + Thunder Hammer 30)
. . . . 1 Death Company, 45 pts = (base cost 20 + Power Fist 25)
. . . . 1 Death Company, 60 pts = (base cost 20 + Power Fist 25 + Power Weapon 15)
. . . . 1 Death Company, 20 pts

Troops: Death Company Dreadnought (1#, 135 pts)
. . 1 Death Company Dreadnought, 135 pts = (base cost 125 + Heavy Flamer 10)

<snip>

Validation Report:
c-1. File Version: 1.45 For Bug Reports/www.ab40k.org; b-1. Roster Options: Imperial Armour, Named or Special Characters; a-1. Scenario: Normal Mission
Unit 'Death Company': You have more special weapons than allowed.
Total points exceed maximum allowed roster size (max 2000).

Composition Report:
HQ: 2 (1 - 2)
Elite: 1 (0 - 3)
Troops: 4 (2 - 6)
Fast: 0 (0 - 3)
Heavy: 2 (0 - 3)

Created with Army Builder® - Try it for free at [url]http://www.wolflair.com[/url]

[gwensdad]

To start this off right, I'd like to get opinions of those who have run/directly participated in 40k tournaments about Army Builder software. If you have a few minutes and wouldn't mind answering a couple questions, I'd appreciate it!

1. Were you a T.O. or a participant?

2. Were Army Builder lists mandatory, preferred, or not required?

3. How did you feel about the response to #2?

4. Did you find that Army Builder lists made things easier, harder, or no change? Please explain.

5. Do you think there should a standard in tournaments for list submission? Army Builder, must be typed, no handwritten...etc. What works best for you as a player, or as a T.O.?

6. Anything in particular you'd like to vent about Army Builder? Regardless of good or bad, how well do you like it as an overall product?

Thanks for the imput everyone, I appreciate it.

-=- A bit of information to clarify the outside aspects of this questionairre-=-

1. Army builder is readily available in this situation, and doesn't need to be purchased. Similar to how Adepticon has theirs set up. the only difference being that it costs $2-5.00 to print lists (depending on if it is one, two or three lists), to reimburse for supplies.

1) participant
2) preferred
3) neutral, but it does beat hand written lists.
4) a little easier to see options I might have missed, plus lists IA options when allowed
5) I think at least "must be typed". Before Army Builder I used a spreadsheet that worked well.
6) There are some features that need more explaination, but I think some of that is the file creator's problem.

[Wolfshade]

Of course:

. . . . 1 Honour Guard, 68 pts = (base cost 23 + Power Fist x1 25 + Storm Shield x1 20)
. . . . 1 Honour Guard, 53 pts = (base cost 23 + Meltagun x1 10 + Storm Shield x1 20)
. . . . 1 Honour Guard, 68 pts = (base cost 23 + Power Fist x1 25 + Storm Shield x1 20)
. . . . 1 Honour Guard, 53 pts = (base cost 23 + Meltagun x1 10 + Storm Shield x1 20)

Could be

. . . . 2 Honour Guard, 68 pts = (base cost 23 + Power Fist x1 25 + Storm Shield x1 20)
. . . . 2 Honour Guard, 53 pts = (base cost 23 + Meltagun x1 10 + Storm Shield x1 20)

which would be better

[DarkLink]

That's exactly one of the points that I want to make.

Your complaints are trivial and completely arbitrary based on personal preference.

Only the points cost. The rest is purely about readability. With all the stats and wargear and everything getting in the way, the list becomes much more difficult to read.

The reason that those units are individually listed is because they can be individually configured. Every model can be different.

They can be, but what if they aren't? See below. List models with common wargear together, it makes it easier to figure out exactly what's in the squad.

As for why the reclusiarch is included - is because I dragged him into the unit. He could appear separately if I wanted, its just the way that I put it since they all ride in the Storm Raven by itself.

But why does army builder even put them in the same unit at all, ever? If I just glance over the list, I might just see Death Company and totally miss the Reclusiarch. Listing them separately is not only more accurate, technically, but easier to read.

Or is it part of the output based on the data file as you mention below?

Also the output relies heavily on the way that the data file is written - which the developers of AB cannot by contract control.

And I'll let Colen know that he should take a tech writing class. I'm sure he'll get a hoot out of that.

I'm sure. I don't want to sound insulting or anything with this, it's meant as constructive criticism, and if there are legal things preventing them from smoothing out some of the issues then I guess there's nothing that can be done. But the printout is still much harder to read than it needs to be.

I've also proven my point about the death company configuration and why your solution of "10 death company" would never work.

Look at my honor guard example. You list models by common wargear. Since there were 10 identical Death Company, you can just say 10 Death Company. If they all have different wargear, then go ahead and list them out individually like I did with the Honor Guard. But keep it as simple and clean as possible, to keep things readable:

Death Company (10#, 480 pts)
-2 Power Fist
-1 Power Fist/Hand Flamer
-1 Infernus Pistol/Thunder Hammer
-1 Plasma Pistol/Power Fist
-1 Power Weapon/Power Weapon
-2 Death Company
-1 Hand Flamer/Thunder Hammer
-1 Power Fist/Power Weapon

Your revised format is another slight improvement, but even if you do keep in the point values there are still some artifacts you can drop. For example, again, that redundant second line of Death Company, 0pts line that serves no purpose.

Also you say that you don't want to see point totals. I do.

So look at the codex. They did bring their codex, right?




Incidentally, the single most important thing I want to see out of any list is the highlights. I want to know what I will be facing, and I want to be able to see that as quickly and efficiently as possible. Oftentimes I gloss over wargear until later. I just want to know 'ok, he's got a Librarian, Terminators, a Land Raider, and 30 Tactical Marines in Rhinos'. Once we deploy, then I can worry about 'ok, the Librarian and Terminators are in the Land Raider, and the Tactical Marines all combat squaded with meltaguns in the Rhinos and lascannons hiding in cover'.

If the list can provide more information than that without getting in the way, then great, but frankly I don't think you really can do that very well at all, army builder or not. At best, you can get maybe a summary page and then a couple extra pages with the states that I can flip to but don't get in the way. And at the same time, you can just look at the codex and get everything you need.

[JMichael]

1) I run most of our LGS Tournaments.

2) I did once require AB lists (and had a laptop/printer on hand for those that wanted to enter their pencil list in).

3. AB or not, I wished more players showed up better prepared. If hand written...the point costs and wargear should be very clearly written out...especially for a tourney.

4. Much easier (did competition output). And mostly it made the players feel better about the lists being legit and added up correctly.

5. I do all of my lists in AB and will continue to do so. I would not have it required because I don't feel it's fair to require the players to spend $$ just to appease the T.O. Although if you at least provide a computer and printer at the store then it's okay imho.

6. I love it, and am very impressed with the ab40k.org group and their responses to bugs (yummy!).

[RedScorpionsGirl]

Aside from the petty squabble, I sincerely thank those who actually took the time to just answer the questions I asked. I really appreciate the feedback, and would love to hear more that would take the time to answer my questions.

To reiterate the message, as it seems to have deviated:

1. Were you a T.O. or a participant?

2. Were Army Builder lists mandatory, preferred, or not required?

3. How did you feel about the response to #2?

4. Did you find that Army Builder lists made things easier, harder, or no change? Please explain.

5. Do you think there should a standard in tournaments for list submission? Army Builder, must be typed, no handwritten...etc. What works best for you as a player, or as a T.O.?

6. Anything in particular you'd like to vent about Army Builder? Regardless of good or bad, how well do you like it as an overall product?

Thanks for the imput everyone, I appreciate it.

-=- A bit of information to clarify the outside aspects of this questionairre-=-

1. Army builder is readily available in this situation, and doesn't need to be purchased. Similar to how Adepticon has theirs set up. the only difference being that it costs $2-5.00 to print lists (depending on if it is one, two or three lists), to reimburse for supplies.