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  1. #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vepr View Post
    From the sounds of it Cruddace really took the nerf bat to the fex. Base stat line with no way to upgrade it with a base price of 160? So same thing we have now for twice the cost before weapons and no extra wound, armor etc. Woot? It also sounds like all our uber cheap bugs will still poor a crap ton of wounds over to our bigger bugs so still not supporting the smaller units in CC. Plus Warriors got more expensive for an extra wound and loss of ID. Doesn't sound like they are going to be used anymore this edition than last. I guess we can use them to baby sit gaunt and gants again but now they are just easier to remove for the enemy than before.
    Am I missing something? Where did it say that the fexes were 160 points? And then weapons? If that's the case, why would you take them (when you used to be able to get 115 point Elite fexes)???

    Unless they come with more things that we don't know of yet...

  2. #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scoota View Post
    Am I missing something? Where did it say that the fexes were 160 points? And then weapons? If that's the case, why would you take them (when you used to be able to get 115 point Elite fexes)???

    Unless they come with more things that we don't know of yet...
    Someone said that the max of 9 Carnifexes would cost almost 1500pts, at their minimum cost. That breaks down to around 160pts each.
    I am the Hammer. I am the right hand of my Emperor. I am the tip of His spear, I am the gauntlet about His fist. I am the woes of daemonkind. I am the Hammer.

  3. #293

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    Fexes are at a base 160 each, rendering them basically worthless in terms of competitive build.

    Brimstone on WS closed yet another nid rumor thread ... that whole forum gets more fail every day.


    There's a lot of worry going about the competitive nid community about the new dex, in how the force org and known point costs all interact in a fashion that's not exactly comforting on the all-comers/mech-heavy scene.

  4. #294

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scoota View Post
    Am I missing something? Where did it say that the fexes were 160 points? And then weapons? If that's the case, why would you take them (when you used to be able to get 115 point Elite fexes)???
    Carnifexes are rumored to start at 160 points base (with 4 sets of Scything talons built in, possibly bio-plasma as well? Supposedly works as a 12" plasma cannon now), with little improvements in their statline aside from a point in BS and 2 more attacks. Oh, and with Ld6 now, no word if they'll require synapse or not, but with Eternal Warrior gone, you're going to see these guys dying to Force Weapons, Mind War, and Instant Death effect weapons in droves.

    Mawlochs are set at 170 points, Trygons at 200.

  5. #295
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    Quote Originally Posted by MVBrandt View Post
    Fexes are at a base 160 each, rendering them basically worthless in terms of competitive build.

    Brimstone on WS closed yet another nid rumor thread ... that whole forum gets more fail every day.


    There's a lot of worry going about the competitive nid community about the new dex, in how the force org and known point costs all interact in a fashion that's not exactly comforting on the all-comers/mech-heavy scene.
    Does that make their 5th one so far?

    Their rules section is pretty bad, too. All the threads there are "I'm too lazy to look this up, can someone tell me if I get +1A for having a Relic Blade and a pistol" or something like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Madjob View Post
    Carnifexes are rumored to start at 160 points base (with 4 sets of Scything talons built in, possibly bio-plasma as well? Supposedly works as a 12" plasma cannon now), with little improvements in their statline aside from a point in BS and 2 more attacks. Oh, and with Ld6 now, no word if they'll require synapse or not, but with Eternal Warrior gone, you're going to see these guys dying to Force Weapons, Mind War, and Instant Death effect weapons in droves.

    Mawlochs are set at 170 points, Trygons at 200.
    Not that weapons with Instant Death effects are really all that common... and it's not like my Grey Knights have ever had trouble killing Carnifexs. It's Tyrants that are tough, and they seem to have built in protection from our force weapons (I6, Tyrant Guard, and this new 3d6 psychic power thing).
    I am the Hammer. I am the right hand of my Emperor. I am the tip of His spear, I am the gauntlet about His fist. I am the woes of daemonkind. I am the Hammer.

  6. #296

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    Going through the rumors by unit so far, it's looking like this (my opinion interjected)

    Synapse - Now it's just "Fearless." No more immunity to instant death, and it's straight fearless instead of automatically passing LD tests.

    Ranged Weapon Symbiotes - As a whole, these are all nerfed. Still a prevalence of mid-strength poor AP weaponry, but with overall far fewer shots per weapon, and all strength/attack characteristics are fixed now, instead of based on creature equipping them. The Venom Cannon is now S6AP4 blast, with -1 to vehicle damage chart rolls. The Heavy Venom Cannon is expensive, limited availability, and S9AP4 blast, with -1 to vehicle damage chart rolls. I would rather have a multi-shot S10 weapon that can't pen, honestly.

    HQ
    Tyrant - At a significant points cost increase, you get a de facto diresword, and you re-roll to hit rolls of "1." You get similar stats to present, but one higher iniative, and WS8 (which is kind of silly, WS7 makes more sense based on the math of the game itself). You have a ton of options, but most are highly expensive ... they range from psychic powers granting Feel No Pain to a unit for a turn (Catalyst) and other potent psy powers to tactical advantages giving TROOPS units outflank, or adding 1 to reserve rolls, etc. Wings are 60 points. They do not have an invulnerable save, are vulnerable to instant death, and barring expensive upgrades have access only to a 3+ armor save. Tyrant guard are roughly the same, but more expensive (~60 points each). No real reason given about why they're pricier.

    Flying Horror - Expensive flying monster w/out a whole lot of durability. Interesting powers and what-not, most effective at shutting down outflankers. Outflanking models all have to take a T test or get turned into ripper swarms, and his victims in combat may get rendered down into rippers also. Again, like the other monsters for the most part in the dex, new cool tricks are heavily offset by high points costs and relatively low durability.

    Tervigon - Probably one you'll see most often used. Rumored cost is only around 150 for a 2+ armor save, T6W4 monster with low attacks / ws / bs / I characteristics, but cool "tricks." For one, they are synaptic, for two they are an HQ but also an optional Troops choice. For every gaunt squad you take, you can take a Tervigon as a Troops choice, allowing 5 in an army for a minimum investment of 900 points (750 for the Tervigons, 150 for the minimum 3 gaunt squads at min size). Tervigons spawn 3d6 plain equipment termagants in the movement phase at will, although if they roll a double on any of the 3 dice they lose the power for the remainder of the game. Possible "gaunt farm" lists where you're spawning an average of 53 termagants per turn until your guys get ganked or burn out. Rare case of an affordable monster in the dex ... sort of. Not affordable compared to demon princes, or old nid dex costs, but at least not ridiculous (though his combat stats are lackluster at best).

    Alpha Warrior - T5 and W4 with good equipment and options, WS6 and high BS that he confers to a unit of warriors if he joins them. Best use will probably be allocating single S8/9 weapon shots to him so that failed cover saves don't = dead warriors.

    Swarmlord - 280 point super tyrant with 4+ invul in close combat but same durability issues at range. No higher toughness or wounds or anything, but WS9 and even higher initiative/etc. Forces 3d6 (or higher) LD test for unsuccessful saves or suffer instant death. Numerous capabilities and psychic powers, with the ability to use two psy powers per turn. At the price, again a big issue of durability with the prevalence of ranged ap3+ weaponry in the game right now.

    Elite

    Ymgarl Genestealers – Buffed super stealers who can add 1 to their Attacks, Strength, or Toughness at the beginning of every turn. They secretly deploy in a terrain feature and when they come in from reserves move / shoot / assault as if coming on from board edge. AWESOME, RIGHT? But wait, there’s a catch. If the enemy occupies that same terrain piece, they are destroyed.

    Pyrovore – Weird choice. Most of the elite guys are sub 100 points, closer to 50 than not, and this includes the pyrovore. Walking, non-fleet heavy flamer toter with hellhound rules for shooting it. Ignores armor saves in close combat with S5, but has only 2-3 attacks and low WS. When he dies, he explodes on a 4+ for S3 AP- hits within d6”. Absurdly bad stats for a new model, kind of surprising. Doesn’t fill any new role not better filled by other Nids, and S3 AP- explosions are more likely to be harmful to nearby Tyranids than to nearby … anything else.

    Lictor – Went far cheaper, but lost the key to its effectiveness. Still rending, good stats, and gains a wound, still adds +1 to reserves, and now apparently acts as a teleport homer for deep striking nids. Unfortunately, while it doesn’t scatter on deep strike and just pops up a la Marbo, it also (like Marbo) can’t assault out of deepstrike. Now an excellent unit for showing up as a teleport homer and +1 reserve roller that you get to shoot at for free for a turn, and that can’t jump out and actually do anything. May have a 6” range AP- S6 Assault 1 shot it can fire when it shows up …

    Venomthrope – 3 attacks wounding on 2+ in combat; 3 wounds/T4; 5+ cover save for itself and any unit within 6”; defensive grenades for itself and any unit within 6” … no better than a 5+ cover save and vulnerable to krak missiles and anything else, and a giant fire magnet given its buff. Confusingly bad choice, not b/c its powers aren’t very good, but b/c it’s so incredibly fragile and eminently targetable.

    Zoanthrope – S10AP1 18” Lance shot still only has at BS3 and requiring a psychic test around 10% chance to kill an AV12+ vehicle … 3+ invulnerable save in exchange for losing the 2+ armor save. 3 wounds but vulnerable to instant death from S8 and higher. Retains smaller warp blast “small blast” ap3 shot. Confusing selection.

    Horror of Malanti (or something similar) – Variant Zoanthrope supposedly still under 100 points, though may be under 100 points as an UPGRADE to a Zoanthrope (meaning well over 100 points net). Has some pretty sick psy powers, and can “leach” itself up to 10 wounds; at least one of its powers has a strength = to the number of wounds it has. Like other Zoans, is vulnerable to instant death from S8+ weaponry, and has a 3+ invul (giving it space marine like vulnerability to small arms … in other words, high vulnerability to small arms).

    Hive Guard – These guys actually look really good. About 50 points for a T6W2 BS4 2-shot S8AP4 24” range assault weapon that doesn’t require line of sight and can penetrate vehicles. This is the “obvious” transport killing selection for the nids. 150 points will net you 3 guys who can be kept in cover (their armor save is only 4+) and are pretty resilient to all forms of firepower, since they are not instant killable, and since they are high toughness vs. small arms. They’ll earn statistically reliable kills on AV12 and lower transport vehicles. Unfortunately you can only take 3 and they compete for spots with the more intriguing zoanthropes. 4+ armor save makes them far more vulnerable to combat against “tough” opponents.

    Troops
    Tervigon – see HQ

    Gaunts – Nerfed extensively. Instead of a 5 point spinegaunt being S3AP5 twin-linked fleet move through cover and with the ability to get without number, it’s now a 5 point Termagant being S3AP6 not twin-linked not fleet not moving through cover and no without number. Lovely. Apparently other weapon upgrades (including spinefists, lol) are very expensive relative to the cost of the gaunt.

    Hormagaunts – “Buffed” in the sense that they aren’t overcosted anymore, but it’s hard to say if they’re really in line with Orks in terms of combat troops. They gain a better / more reliable fleet (3d6 pick the highest), but lose the beast charge. They lose one weapon skill, gain one initiative, and retain same number of attacks. For a few points per upgrade, they can be given furious charge and/or 4+ envenomed attacks. You’ll see them used and spammed, but I don’t know if they’re really any good still. No ability to hide any kind of better weapons in the squad means they will of course be dreadnaught bait, and tougher troop bait. The removal of a fast charge has far reaching implications in terms of the ease with which an opponent can get a reliable rapid fire / flamer blast off at them.

    Warriors – Another wound, better weapon skill, similar stats otherwise. 30 points base, with scything talons (a pair of which allows you to re-roll 1’s to hit) and a relatively average anti-infantry gun. While scoring, and spammable, they are now vulnerable to instant death from S8, and there are a lot of S8 guns in the game right now. Synaptic still but highly confusing changes. Continue as a demonstration of the fact that it is nearly impossible to appropriately cost multi-wound models that aren’t hide-able (transports, perma cover save bikes, different weapons for allocation, or independent characters) and that are vulnerable to instant death.

    Rippers – By the sounds of it, these are actually worse. Still vulnerable to instant death, still vulnerable to blasts/templates due to being swarms, and if they get outside of synapse and fail their LD test they actually eat each other.

    Genestealers – 2 points cheaper with not a lot of upgrade options. One stealer can be turned into a broodlord with similar stats to the old HQ broodlord. Their own “hidden pfist” just … you know … with only S5. Stealers all gain infiltrate, so they can all outflank by default. Probably a much more viable option in anyone’s eyes now, except they can’t get extended carapace, so they are at best a 5+ save. Oh …

    Fast Attack
    Harpy – Most hilarious ill-conceived entry in the dex. For around 150-160 points you get a flying monstrous creature that poops spore mines on enemies it flies over. Sound good? Think again. T5 W4, 4+ save, vulnerable to instant death. Ooops.

    Gargoyles – Legitimate selection. Any to hit roll of 6 wounds automatically. 6 points supposedly. Flying, but no longer fleet. One might argue with their guns dropping to S3AP6, fleet going away, bio-plasma changing to just a wound on 6 to hit and a drop to 6 points = finally costing them properly, only to take away all the things that made them good … glance / immobilize threats to vehicles, high initiative s4 attacks, lots of speed with fleet, and s4 shots prior to charge. Ooops.

    Flying Warriors – Warriors with less options for 5 more points.

    Raveners – Extra wound, vulnerable to instant death, may be able to enter play via Trygon tunnels. Re-roll to hit, WS5, with rending, and cheap at only 30 points base. Still beast charge and fleet. May be given a cool flamer with 3 fire modes including a rending mode. May be a viable option in some builds. I personally hope so – have always loved ravs.

    Heavy Support
    Carnifex – As rumored, massive increase in base cost with relatively marginal increase in stats. Can be taken in broods. Base equipment gives them a 12” range plasma cannon shot at bs3, and 5 attacks on the charge that re-roll to hit and are still S9. Highly expensive upgrades to give them a ranged weapon or a better armor save, untenably so perhaps. Can be given furious charge, and by default add +2 I when charging due to being big nasty battering ram critters. So, can potentially have 5 re-roll to hit I4 s10 attacks on the charge. Cost is the big downside, and base durability of only 6/4/3+

    Mawloc / Trygon / Trygon Prime – 170/200/? Points each, Mawloc is a “blast you when I show up” burrower/reburrower with average combat stats and t6/w6/sv3+ … Trygon has same stats but better ws/I/attacks and is more expensive, and has a 6 shot s6 weapon. Trygon Prime is synaptic trygon with 12 shot weapon. All 3 apparently protected a la drop pods from deep strike mishap.

    Tyrannofex – 250 points of “lolwut?” Kitbash of fex and trygon. You’re paying for 6 wounds, 2+ save, low I, BS3, low attacks, 20 shot S4AP5 gun, S5AP4 hellhound flamer, Ravener flamer, and 2 shot S10 48” AP4 gun. It’s like Cruddace just chucked a bunch of guns and wounds and armor on a monstrous chassis and charged points to match. Inability to voluntarily select many of the crap it has renders it untenably expensive just to have 2 BS3 anti-tank shots, basically. Everything else in the army is better at killing infantry for the points, and all of its OTHER guns are only effective vs. infantry.

    Biovores – 35 points each for a S4AP4 large blast that can turn into a spore mine. Spore mines also fast attack choices. Independently selected spore mines deep strike after sides selected but prior to deployment, making them useable as infiltration/dawn of war denial units if nothing else. S4AP4 and no other mine options is a big nerf to “expectations” but better than biovores used to be. May only be allowed to take 1 biovore squad, but can have 3 in it and they operate as a battery. Problematic in that the entire army is anti-infantry by default, and in such a way that it is all moving and operating together. A unit that sits at the back of the board not supporting the main thrust and chucking large blasts that later in the game threaten your own units … is still just as bad as it ever was. No anti-tank capability makes it just throwing 135 points into the hopes of bad scatters for the sake of spawning spore mines to piss people off. Spore mines don’t count as kill points but also don’t contest or capture objectives.


    $.02 …
    5 x Tervigon lists supported by 9 x Hive Guard to pop transports may be viable
    Psychic lists with lots of potent powers may be seen a lot, but will run into trouble against some lists at the tournament level
    Numerous units that without seeing the codex to make final decision are just bad … Tyrannofexes, Biovores, Lictors, Venomthropes, Carnifexes, Swarmlords, Harpies, Gaunts, Rippers, Warriors, Pyrovores, etc. are all crap for their points/effectiveness breakdown.


    There are a lot of things I’m not touching on, and the dex will be fun I’m sure. Need to see more than just rumors, need to see the actual dex, but felt like sharing my $.02 and passing along some of the rumor mill in the process.



    Overall, I don't think Tyranid are going to have any impact on the game at all, other than to encourage baddies who still use footslogging lists and swear they are competitive to mech up along with the rest of the top tier of players. The nids are still utterly lethal to pure footsloggers, but if the rumors pan out as true people are going to take weird nid lists with their elite slots and such dedicated to anti-transport capacity, and ultimately nerf their own ability to deal with infantry to a point, while hoping to be able to pop enough transports to even the odds. Most of the "top tier" armies at present are still going to fare quite well against most nid builds you can put out, so it's going to be up to talented nid players. The "we always have cover everywhere even on a wide open board" Nid Meatball will remain, and the army will slow down even more b/c of a loss of "move through cover" across the board.
    Last edited by MVBrandt; 12-14-2009 at 11:39 AM.

  7. #297

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    You know, with everyone on the blogs screaming about how they're gonna have to change up their lists and adjusts this on their strategy or change that in their tactics... I just... don't change anything. And just play a bit better. I suppose it's a mixed blessing, having a codex where I'm already stocked up on eveything that's useful anyway. Exorcists and meltaguns for the big guys, flamers and bolters for the little ones...

    Ah, a pity I didn't have their problems. I want more choice in my army -.-
    The mouth of the Emperor shall meditate wisdom; from His tongue shall speak judgment

  8. #298

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    MVBrandt, good summary, but I'd like to point out that Biovores don't at all need to sit back behind your lines, they can march along with the rest of the army (though admittedly they won't run while doing so) while firing the spore mines, as the spore launcher is an assault weapon now.

  9. #299

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    Doesn't change ANYTHING. I will nom nom them regardless of their choices.

    Does make me want to Mech Up, though...

  10. #300

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    So we lost eternal warrior, fleet, move through cover, 114 point fexes, 2+ saves, and feeder tendrils. What did we get again?

 

 
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