Mountain King - Stats, Cards and Model Pics

[under]

Don't buy the skinner model. Theres a really great Iron Kingdoms model I use as my 2nd skinner. Check it:



Cheaper than the skinner too :-)

I would never even attempt to proxy in tournement games. My trollblood tray is heavy enough without carrying extra models just in case.

In any event my comment of buying the Mountain King after a unit of Bushwackers and a second Skinner should indicate how underwhelmed I am about its rules. I simply do not have the money to spend on models I have no expectation of using on the table.

[wittdooley]

I would never even attempt to proxy in tournement games. My trollblood tray is heavy enough without carrying extra models just in case.

And that is why I'm glad I don't play in any 'real' tournaments for Warmahordes. That's absolutely ridiculous, considering the model is close enough to the Skinner and isn't actually another Trolblood model. Absurd.

In any event my comment of buying the Mountain King after a unit of Bushwackers and a second Skinner should indicate how underwhelmed I am about its rules. I simply do not have the money to spend on models I have no expectation of using on the table.

And there's the reason I'm less enamoured with the PP 'scene' than GW. Despite the AWESOME tutorials PP produces, it seems like far fewer people in the game are concerned with the hobby aspect. There aer so few great looking PP models these days; it's a shame you wouldn't want to get an exceptional looking one because you've determined the rules are lacking...

[under]

And that is why I'm glad I don't play in any 'real' tournaments for Warmahordes. That's absolutely ridiculous, considering the model is close enough to the Skinner and isn't actually another Trolblood model. Absurd.

To each their own I suppose, I personally hate the degree to which most TO's running WH40K allow proxying/converting/counts-as'ng. I like gaming at a tournament to be about gaming at a tournament. I like being at tournament game and literally never needing to ask "What model is that?" never needing to personally track which Lascannons are Missile Launchers, which are ones are Multi-melta' and which are actually Lascannons. I like being able to just look at a model and know exactly what it is and never concern myself with how its been modeled may impact the game.

The same way I like painting competitions to be about painting, the last painting competition I entered when I still played my Tyranids was comp'd by performance in the tournament, it was a /headdesk moment for me.

And there's the reason I'm less enamoured with the PP 'scene' than GW. Despite the AWESOME tutorials PP produces, it seems like far fewer people in the game are concerned with the hobby aspect. There aer so few great looking PP models these days; it's a shame you wouldn't want to get an exceptional looking one because you've determined the rules are lacking...

As to being deterred, I thought I made it clear in the two posts above that I simply can not justify spending money on a model that "just" looks great. I am in this hobby to play, paint, lore, RP, etc., if I won't use a model on the table that is wasted hobby money to me. For my money I want the complete hobby package not merely a sub-section of it.

I can't speak for any area but my local gaming group, but I see far more untouched or just primed 40K then I do for Warmachine. Though looking at WHFB even when 40K and WMH are combined WHFB beats them for fully painted.

To be honest, while GW has made some great in contributions to the hobby, dominating contributions, but ultimately they really aren't a hobby company to me and they never will be until they support the entire hobby, which includes tournament quality game play. Like it or not it is a part of the Tabletop Wargamming Hobby. PP puts competitive gaming front and centre but they do support the entire hobby and have the presence of mind to impose limitations on those aspects which conflict so as to maintain clarity.

To the people reading this I'm sorry for continuing wittdooley's post in manner that turned into a GW vs. PP rage, I suppose I still have baggage over toy soldiers.

[Parcival]

I for my part won't buy the MK anytime soon - if ever. It's a great model, but before I get him, I stock up on a War Wagon and a EBDT first - they are simply more powerful. The MK surely won't run away and I can still do him later for modeling/painting enjoyment and fun games - but currently I don't see him having a place in a competitive list. Maybe a new edition of WM/H would change that?

[wittdooley]

To the people reading this I'm sorry for continuing wittdooley's post in manner that turned into a GW vs. PP rage, I suppose I still have baggage over toy soldiers.

No one turned it into a GW vs PP thing. I simple spoke of the "PP scene" in that, tournament wise, I find a huge problem with the notion that you wouldn't even consider an alternative model. To me that's ridiculous. It's a shame because Privateer has enough problems getting to us a unit with 100% unique sculpts. I mean, I'm still holding out on getting a Sluggers unit because it irritates me that they couldn't put more than 3 unique sculpts in a 5 man boxed set.

Working with and converting models is a big part of the hobby to most people, so the fact that you'd be discouraged from it in a Privateer tournament is a frustrating thing to me.

So, and let me see if I understand your mindset, you'd purchase a shyte looking model if it has fantastic rules, but wouldn't buy a fantastic looking model if the rules were mediocre. Is that what you're saying or am I simply misreading?

Personally, I think to say that GW isn't a hobby company (and yes, I know you said "to you") is one of the silliest things I've ever heard. We'll just have to disagree about Privateers imposed limitations.

Don't get me wrong. I really enjoy playing Warmahordes. But only with my buddies. I agree that the rules are tight, but the game isn't fun in tournaments unless you have the time to devote to playing a lot and knowing many of the synergies and combos of other armies. Contrarily, I find 40k, despite it's "looser" ruleset, to be a better tournament environment to me, because when someone tells me "this gun is a melta" regardless of army or look, I know what I'm dealing with. You can't even say that for the Black 13, for whom all have different magelock pistol rules.

But clearly, we're in this hobby for different reasons. I do it as a way to relax and hang out and drink beer. When I want to get my competitive juices flowing, I play rugby or do CrossFit. For me, playing with tiny plastic men should be a relaxing endeavor.

[under]

No one turned it into a GW vs PP thing.

Pretty sure I carried it in that direction.

So, and let me see if I understand your mindset, you'd purchase a shyte looking model if it has fantastic rules, but wouldn't buy a fantastic looking model if the rules were mediocre. Is that what you're saying or am I simply misreading?

It depends upon how bad. There is room to alter models in a tournement setting but not to alter rules. If I can "fix" the model while staying in the rules then yes I do buy it. If I can't then I don't.

In my Ret forces I have Madelyn Corbeau and Master Holt head swapped to be Iosians, Victopr Pendrake from Tollblood and Cirlce has had his glasses filed off all of which is well within the converting restrictions. As is my repossed Feralgaist. Most of my models have bits added to them for character, for example skulls (I have always like the skull obsession GW has) but again never to the extent that is crosses the converting restrictions.

I'll never buy Gundrun the Wanderer, Alten Ashley, or Totem Hunter. All have rules that have had me wantting to use them at one point or another but not having an idea how to convert them to something I wouldn't hate to look at I never bought them and filled the roles they would differently. I am extremmyly envious of Leigon's and Menoth's abilies to invest relatively large amounts of points in beasts and jacks, but I hate the formers models range and the latters fluff.

But clearly, we're in this hobby for different reasons.

Pretty much.

I used to play Soccer competatively (at least as competatively as I possibly could with other real life obligations) but suffered an injury that left me a bit of a limp when running. After exploring various platforms I settled upon Table Top Wargamming to scratch my "do something competative" itch.

[wittdooley]

Pretty sure I carried it in that direction.

It depends upon how bad. There is room to alter models in a tournement setting but not to alter rules. If I can "fix" the model while staying in the rules then yes I do buy it. If I can't then I don't.

In my Ret forces I have Madelyn Corbeau and Master Holt head swapped to be Iosians, Victopr Pendrake from Tollblood and Cirlce has had his glasses filed off all of which is well within the converting restrictions. As is my repossed Feralgaist. Most of my models have bits added to them for character, for example skulls (I have always like the skull obsession GW has) but again never to the extent that is crosses the converting restrictions.

I'll never buy Gundrun the Wanderer, Alten Ashley, or Totem Hunter. All have rules that have had me wantting to use them at one point or another but not having an idea how to convert them to something I wouldn't hate to look at I never bought them and filled the roles they would differently. I am extremmyly envious of Leigon's and Menoth's abilies to invest relatively large amounts of points in beasts and jacks, but I hate the formers models range and the latters fluff.

Out of curiosity because I dont know, what ARE the conversion restrictions? I don't play in any PP sanctioned events so I dont' know.

[under]

Out of curiosity because I dont know, what ARE the conversion restrictions? I don't play in any PP sanctioned events so I dont' know.

Here's the link to the entire Steamroller Tournement Package for 2012 but I've copy/pasted the model conversions section bellow and the part in bold is bolded in the document. It long because it mostly just repeats itself for the different models types and gives examples.

[url]http://privateerpress.com/files/SR2012_Rules_V1.3.pdf[/url]

Model Conversions

Playing with a uniquely individualized and painted force is one of the most rewarding aspects of the hobby. Just as with information disclosure and sportsmanship, players are expected to be unambiguous about model representation. The following rules must be adhered to when using converted models in organized play. These rules are meant not to limit a player’s modeling options but rather to allow creativity without generating an environment that could become confusing during game play. At his discretion, an event organizer can make exceptions to these rules to approve any reasonable conversion.

A converted model must contain a majority of parts from the WARMACHINE or HORDES model for which the rules were written. For example, a Testament of Menoth conversion must be composed mostly of parts from the Testament of Menoth model. The end result of any conversion must be clearly identifiable as the intended miniature and accurately represent its weapons and equipment as listed in its rules. Any conversions must be clearly pointed out to your opponent before the game to avoid confusion.

On warrior models, converting and swapping weapons is acceptable provided the new weapon represents the same type of weapon replaced (like swapping one sword for another). Anything relating to a weapon’s specific rules must be maintained to avoid confusion on the tabletop. For example, a weapon with Chain Weapon must still be modeled as a chain-style weapon, and a weapon’s length must be considered when converting weapons with Reach.

Weapons cannot be swapped on warjack and warbeast models. Since many of the ’jacks and beasts utilize the same chassis or torso, the weapons are the most identifiable part of the model when looking across the tabletop. Converting warjacks and warbeasts is still encouraged, but the aesthetics of the weapons must be maintained. Modifying weapons is permitted, as long as the end result is easily identifiable as the intended warjack or warbeast’s proper weapon.

Models/units with upgrade blisters are an exception to the standard model conversion rules in a number of ways. Because the parts in these blisters define an entirely separate set of stats and abilities, the upgrade parts must be clearly visible on the model/unit matching the upgrade stat card in order to be legal for tournament use. For example, a helljack with one claw and one harpoon is not Malice. The model must have the correct head, harpoon blade, and all three spirit parts from the Malice upgrade in order to be considered Malice. Additionally, once a model/unit has been converted, it can only be fielded as that model/unit. For example, a Warpwolf with the parts from the Ghetorix upgrade is not an acceptable "conversion" for use with a Warpwolf Stalker stat card. Lastly, in the case of unit attachment or weapon attachment upgrade, the model(s) that use the upgrade stat card must follow these rules to be legal for tournament use, but the base unit follows the standard conversion policy for warrior model conversions, above. For example, a Black Dragon Officer & Standard must always use the Black Dragon upgrade stat card and an Iron Fang Pikemen Officer & Standard must always use the Iron Fang Pikemen Officer & Standard stat card, but an Iron Fang Pikemen unit without a UA uses its standard stat card whether or not they have Black Dragon shields (or any other reasonable conversion).

Miniatures must be on their appropriately-sized WARMACHINE/HORDES base, but scenic details can be added. The base’s perimeter must always be considered when modeling scenic details. While it is acceptable for scenic elements to overhang the base’s edge, the base itself and not the scenic elements is used for all measurements. The edge of a model’s base must not obscured to the point that accurate measuring becomes difficult or impossible.

Further, because a models volume is deffined by it's base size (vis the Rulebook) it's impossible to "model to advantage" by going all out with reposing and dramatic basing.

[wittdooley]

Here's the link to the entire Steamroller Tournement Package for 2012 but I've copy/pasted the model conversions section bellow and the part in bold is bolded in the document. It long because it mostly just repeats itself for the different models types and gives examples.

[url]http://privateerpress.com/files/SR2012_Rules_V1.3.pdf[/url]



Further, because a models volume is deffined by it's base size (vis the Rulebook) it's impossible to "model to advantage" by going all out with reposing and dramatic basing.

Interesting. So basically you can convert, but you have ti start with thE base model. Does height matter in regards to scenic bases?

[under]

Interesting. So basically you can convert, but you have ti start with thE base model. Does height matter in regards to scenic bases?

Nope. Models dimentions are defined

small base is 30mm in diametre and 1.50" tall,
medium base is 40mm in diametre and 2.25" tall, and
large base is 50mm in diametre and 2.75" tall

so build a scenic base that adds 5" to your models height it doesn't impact how the game plays. I've seen quite a few Gatormen Posse units with 25-50% of the model chopped off and modelled in reccessed bases filled in with water effects to make them look like they are comming out of a swap, doesn't matter they were still 40mm by 2.25" had +50% of the orginal model and a long spear weapon. 100% Tournement legit.