6th Edition - Not Sure How Much I Care

[ElectricPaladin]

I've been thinking about it and realized that Warhammer 40k is going to have to do a lot to regain my trust. 6th Edition will be in my hands very soon, and I'm not sure how much I care.

A little background on me: I'm a relatively new wargamer. I started playing at the end of the last school year. 40k was my first game because it's so popular - I have a messy schedule and not a lot of time to play, so I liked the idea of starting off with a game I could play on almost any given evening - and from there, I've branched out into Warhammer Fantasy, Warmahordes, and, most lately, Infinity. I really enjoyed 40k, at first, but with every new game it has slid further and further down the totem pole, until now I can honestly say that it's my least favorite.

The first - and biggest - issue with 40k is the lack of balance and moribund tactical environment. My main army is Tau, and my secondary force is Blood Angels. I am sick unto death of losing to my friend's Imperial Guard wall-of-tanks. I am sick unto death of there being one and a half viable Tau builds. I've never faced Grey Knights or Space Wolves, and I can only imagine how that would go.

Contrast this with, say, Infinity, with its exquisitely balanced environment and huge variety of tactics. Contrast it with Warmahordes, where every Warnoun plays differently and very few of them are "bad."

I'm also frustrated with the price of 40k. It's not just that individual kits and boxes are expensive and rising in price - which they are - it's that the game is structured around buying tons and tons of stuff. To change the direction of a 40k army, you probably need to buy at least a boxed set, possibly a really expensive boxed set, and maybe even several boxes. In Privateer Press's games, you can totally transform how your army plays by buying a different Warnoun and - potentially - a new warjack/warbeast or box of soldiers. In Infinity, you can change the way your army plays with a $10 blister.

It's a bad combination. The extremely plodding, extremely static tactical world of 40k, combined with the relatively high price of changing directions, means that if you aren't lucky enough to start with something "competitive," you might never get there. If I trip upon an unfortunate synergy in Warmahordes, well, that's maybe $30 down the drain. If I manage to do that in Infinity, well... I'd probably be the first person ever. I started with Tau in 40k, and I'm still frustrated.

So, there's been a lot of talk about what 6th Edition is going to change. New close combat rules, overwatch is back, more complex and universalized psychic rules... what I want to know is, is 6th Edition going to make the game vital again? Are my Tau going to stand a chance in 6th Edition? What are they going to do to make tactics determine who wins a game, rather than build or faction? What is 6th going to do that will fix, not just change, 5th? As it stands now, I'm not sure how excited I am about 6th edition.

I'm not sure I know the answer to that question - but maybe you do. As I wrote above, I'm relatively new to this hobby, and while a lot has been said about what 6th may bring, I can't always put it together on my own. If you want to share - or have any other opinions - I'm eager to read them.

[Mr Mystery]

I'd give it a whirl.

And to be fair, main reasons I play 40k are the background, and the awesome local community. The points you raised are valid, and certainly still being in school, money is likely more of an issue for you than I. (got to love disposable income!)

But seriously, give it a whirl. I know it's anecdotal, but look to 8th Edition Fantasy. Cut through the whineosphere online, and notice what the actual player base are saying. The new core rules balanced the game, and the recent army books are all on a par in terms of quality etc.

Finally....there's no shame in not finding a game entertaining any more. You've just started out, and it could well be that skirmish games are more your cup of tea.

[Defenestratus]

Ok, Bye!


Its clear that you don't want convincing that you've made the wrong decision, so why waste keystrokes trying.

[Denzark]

Ha, where to start...

You took a tough choice with Tau. And Blood Angels are totally different. Actually, you are probably more than aware of this.

If this has got you into other games, and they give you what you want and 40K don't, you know what to do. Is 6th going to change it all and make the Tau uber? Are you annoyed because your friend's IG gunline outshoots your Tau and you want this to change? You might come top of the shooty tree, to find out that a Psyker Battle Squad with the alleged new card system, is harder than a reaver - what the tau gonna do for Psy defence?

I disagree with your assessment of the tactics or lack thereof in 40K - I have played in every edition and with Apoc/Planetstrike/Spear Head/The battle missions book/The new Deathworld blurb there is something to keep it fresh. Yes you can't go far wrong targetting troops choices but Warmahordes = kill the spellcaster.

As to price, its people like you falling on the side of leaving gets me cheap armies...

I could be flippant, and say I'm not sure I care how much you care, because I'm sure 6th will be amusing. The first 2 years of any new edition make me laugh as I inadvertantly try and use rules from older editions I have played.

But in reality, be patient, try playing 6th with someone elses copy so you save the money. If you think its pants, leave, sell your stuff cheap on Ebay, go to infiwarmalifaux or whatever. Just don't come back to tell us cause I am sure how much I care about them!

[Wildeybeast]

I'd give it a whirl.

And to be fair, main reasons I play 40k are the background, and the awesome local community. The points you raised are valid, and certainly still being in school, money is likely more of an issue for you than I. (got to love disposable income!)

But seriously, give it a whirl. I know it's anecdotal, but look to 8th Edition Fantasy. Cut through the whineosphere online, and notice what the actual player base are saying. The new core rules balanced the game, and the recent army books are all on a par in terms of quality etc.

Finally....there's no shame in not finding a game entertaining any more. You've just started out, and it could well be that skirmish games are more your cup of tea.

Exactly what I was going to say. Hopefully the codex creep which became so annoying in 40k will be replaced by a much more balanced system like Warhammer has done. As someone who plays Warhammer, I'm surprised electricpaladin hasn't already thought of this. And given we have no definite idea what rules changes will happen, I would sugggest waiting to see what the rules do change before giving up on 40k.

[Levitas]

GW is a model making company that tacked a gaming system on the end as collectors wanted something to do with their toy soldiers. 6 editions later that hasn't really changed.

After you realize that just enjoy the models, background and the community. Yes its expensive, but the quality of models is good. I totally agree though, new lists can often mean a wallet busting change. But See above!

It will never be cost efficient, it will never be balanced, and it will always have marines. But it will always be pretty.

[Aventine]

What are they going to do to make tactics determine who wins a game, rather than build or faction? What is 6th going to do that will fix, not just change, 5th?

I think if you gave the game enough of a chance to become more experienced you might realize that build/faction trumping tactics is an internet fiction. Becoming stuck in that mentality makes it a self-fulfilling prophecy (if you think your tactics don't matter then you will never develop them enough to make them matter).

[antennafarm]

a weird position, to feel the obligation of exposition. "i don't think i care!" "nobody asked?"

[Black Hydra]

What the heck happened to just posting for conversation? I mean there's nothing wrong with saying what's on your mind and asking what others think overall. What is everyone expecting to hear? More rumors to quarrel over and half arsed posts to enjoy condescending?

To OP, I also just started out recently and agree it sucks to meet that wall of bullets. My friend plays a hybrid blob/mech IG army. I used to think my Necrons could match his IG's quantity of firepower with their quality of firepower. Turns out, like a noob, I learned that's not the case. While running isn't my style, I figured out hanging back and letting himself get worn out works best.

Allow me to explain. IG have a very strong starting turn. With all the firepower they bring, even with crappy BS and full scatter, they are bound to hit something. But quantity doesn't hold out forever. Selectively take out some of their vehicles or infantry and they lose steam. Take out their command squad and they've lost a third of their army basically.

I don't know how you play your Tau against that IG army, but taking shots from far away using disposable units really is their bane. Keep your main forces in reserve or cover while pummeling their forward units with throw away vehicles is key. A great unit for this is the Piranha. Fast moving melta guns is what it's all about. In objective games move them towards Chimeras with vets flat out. Chances are if the IG player took ordnance, they didn't take hydras and vice versa. The points investment is too much. In kill points games Piranhas are a great first strike unit. Your main tanks should be taking shots at the Lemans and blobs that come out of the destroyed Chimeras.

Also, IG love the Master of the Fleet to screw up opponents reserve rolls. I'm pretty sure the Tau have something that allows to re roll failed reserve rolls. And the suits can re roll their scatter dice.

My 2 friends, the IG guy and Tau guy, usually end up tying their games. They're so evenly matched.

Don't give up on 40k because of a few bad experiences against the common lists. Tau are still great. They are a mobile shooting power to be reckoned with. Use them as such.

[pauljc]

OP, I can certainly appreciate your point of view, but allow me to offer some alternative perspective.

The price of things is never gonna make us happy. All hobbies are designed to make you buy more. I mean, sure, you *could* just stick with a Warmahordes battle group box, and not buy anything else, but chances are you won't. You like the minis, and they want you to buy more. In our commercial society, everything is based on getting you to buy more.

Personally, for the quality I'm getting, I find that GW minis are reasonably priced. Most of the time. Sometimes I think GW gets a little crazy, but such is their right. They are a company trying to make money. Also, people often forget that GW minis are not manufactured in a 'third world' country, where sweatshop labour can be bought for a few cents. People in the UK like to be paid a decent wage (though, having worked at GW in the past, I wouldn't call it decent ). Cost discussions could take up entire forums, so I'm gonna skip that.

You are totally free to exercise your consumer rights to simply not buy stuff from GW. I don't mean that to sound provocative, but that's really all it comes down to at the end of the day. You make a conscious choice to pay top dollar/pound/euro for a high quality product. Or not. Or, like myself, you simply alter your spending habits to account for rising prices.
As much as it may seem like it to some, GW is not an evil corporate entity that exists in a vacuum and does whatever it feels like. A lot of research and evaluation goes into their policies and pricing.

With regards to 5th edition's lack of tactics, I agree somewhat. Having been into this hobby for about 25 years now, it's just the nature of the beast. 5th edition was designed to be much faster playing, more visceral, but, at the end of the day, it basically comes down to how many buckets of dice you can throw.
For older gamers like myself, I'd dare say that such a system - while fun - does eventually become a little dull or simplistic. Which is one of the reasons I am looking forward to 6th. If the rumours are true, it appears that there will be much more 'choice' with how I play the game. More tactical flexibility, and less having to take that 50pt Pask upgrade to my Punisher, just so that I can beat my crappy luck with rolling 4+. Less feeling like I have to take certain army choices just to have a chance of beating my buddy's new Necrons.

Also, this Codex-creep stuff people go on about isn't anything new. While it is a business decision to re-new a product, there's a certain amount of creative effort also. Game designers come up with new ideas for an army. The fluff changes. Someone sees something in another game and thinks, 'ooh, that would look cool if we altered it for the IG'.
This all eventually becomes a new book, with new rules, alterations, etc etc. I mean, why would you want to create something, and then simply leave it unchanged forever? Take any product; cars, food, computers. Same deal.

Codex-creep is real, to a certain extent. Newer Codices do have advantages of hindsight over older ones. The designers have gone back over older rules, re-written some, built new ones, and added new stuff purely because it's cool. Partly to get you to spend more money, and partly because it's just creative.

Thankfully, GW doesn't invalidate our model collections when they release new army books and rules. Sure, some things might change or disappear, but that's what 'counts as' is for.

Additionally, I don't understand your complaint about having to buy new stuff to alter an existing army and send it in a new direction. To say that Warmachine doesn't require this is incorrect. How is having 10 different units/models different in Warmachine than it is in 40K? If I have 3 different HQ choices and 4 different Troop choices sitting in my box, I can formulate many different army list combinations. Likewise, I can do the same thing in WM with 3 different Warcasters and 4 different 'jacks. But sooner or later, I'm going to decide that I need that extra Assault squad or Merc solo, and go out and buy it.
It may seem like Warmahordes has more list-building flexibility, but I disagree. What I do personally like about WM is the potential to build truly whacky combinations that still function on the battlefield. 40K has that too, but to a lesser extent. But that's the nature of Warmahordes. It has a lot more individual models and units, and I think it was built with this kind of flexibility in mind. And that's cool. They are two different games.

I too love Infinity, precisely because it is so completely different to 40K. It plays different. 40K is about skirmish-level warfare. Infinity is about small-unit actions and spec-ops. On that scale, you can really go in-depth on the individual actions of your little dudes. You can't compare them really. If you added the same level of individuality rules to a 2000pt 40K army, you'd never finish playing.

All in all, if you're finding 5th edition to be a little dull and devoid of tactics, then maybe you should care about 6th, because by all accounts it seems like it will be adding in a lot more choice to the game. It could end up like WHFB, or a combination of 40K, Infinity and WM. I'm hoping for a happy, fun medium.