6th Edition - Not Sure How Much I Care

[Panxer]

Yeah, buddy of mine who used to work for GW here on the east coast assures me that typically GW has things done WAY in advance and just like any other company, has release dates (which are subject to change) which has the side effect of keeping army/product loyalists chomping at the bit forever (until we abandon hope and move on to greener pastures). Then, by then it's too late.

Key point in economics* Demand to Supply ratio: Butt tons of people screaming for a Tau codex (which can probably be heard on the moon) + arbitrary zero fulfillment of market demand by production company = 0 profit from market. I'm sure Keynes is twirling in his grave about now.

This is why I've shelved my Tau and will be concentrating on my guard forces; or even a whole new gaming system.

[Wolfshade]

But as GW figures themselves show, the majority of players want Space Marine stuff hence the larger range, more frequent updates.

[GrogDaTyrant]

But as GW figures themselves show, the majority of players want Space Marine stuff hence the larger range, more frequent updates.

Those figures also don't show how many non-marine players stop playing 40k out of frustration (very common occurrence in my region), and they certainly didn't account for all models that were purchased by Ork players for looting. Think about this for a second, prior to the plastic gretchin release, how well do you think GW's figures accounted for the multitude of Ork armies world-wide that fielded grots? Even in the days of 3rd, 4th, and 5th ed? They have always been a must-have unit, with exception to the last 6-months of 4th when they were literally useless. Players (myself included) regularly built and fielded 30-strong units of the blighters... But few actually used more than a blister or 3 of the metal grots. The most common piece of advice given out to burgeoning Ork players was to get gretchin by buying Goblin, Night Goblin, or Gnoblar boxes and convert them up with spare pistols. You see a similar situation currently with Ork players and Rokkit-Buggies/Trakks. Despite there being a (hideous) model, a lot of players just scratch-build or convert one out of wartrukk kits.

Now granted, that is just one army that has a long (very long) history of not being accurately tracked via GW's sales figures. However it should be noted that on 2 separate occasions an army has gone from bottom rung sales to soaring above that of everything else for months on end, all because it actually got a release (no matter how bad). Most notable were the Dark Eldar and before that the Orks. Neither army generated remotely decent sales prior to their revisits, and both armies went an apalling 10± years without any shred of attention what-so-ever. Then once they got a revisit, stores couldn't keep them on the shelves for well over a year. They are also still doing fairly well despite 1 being used as the intro-game punching-bag, and the other having a challenging glass-cannon play-style.

When no support is given to an army, and it's models look outdated and/or bad, then it tends to not sell well. Tau and Sisters being fine examples of this. A significant reason as to why marines sell so well (but not all of the reason), is self-perpetuated through always having new codices, being in every starter-set, and being hyped continuously by store staff.

[Denzark]

Now granted, that is just one army that has a long (very long) history of not being accurately tracked via GW's sales figures. However it should be noted that on 2 separate occasions an army has gone from bottom rung sales to soaring above that of everything else for months on end, all because it actually got a release (no matter how bad). Most notable were the Dark Eldar and before that the Orks. Neither army generated remotely decent sales prior to their revisits, and both armies went an apalling 10± years without any shred of attention what-so-ever. Then once they got a revisit, stores couldn't keep them on the shelves for well over a year. They are also still doing fairly well despite 1 being used as the intro-game punching-bag, and the other having a challenging glass-cannon play-style.

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Source please - I mean GW HQ figures, not some Indy FLGS you may be privy to the bottom line of.

[GrogDaTyrant]

I disagree with your assessment of the tactics or lack thereof in 40K - I have played in every edition...

[Citation needed]. I would like a full spreadsheet outlining the potential tactical and strategic applications of each individual army and unit in direct comparison to every other game system on the market. Especially historical. And I don't want your personal opinions on the matter, either. Just quantifiable proof.

Asinine requests aside, I have 4 local GWs in my region that during the time of the Ork codex, could not get any of the sets in and were only receiving at best a single boy box or two to replenish their missing stock. And believe me, I was visiting every one in my area at the time. And each had sold the large box-sets containing every new model release by within a few days of it hitting the shelf.

This is what is called a 'shortage', often caused by excessive market demand. In contrast, every one of those GWs had little issue keeping new BA or SW releases on the shelf.

Also of note, is that the Dark Eldar and Orks both received a 3rd wave release (unless I'm mistaken on Dark Eldar part). Why would they bother with a 3rd wave consisting of kanz, dreads, and 3 extremely minor characters? It's not like kanz and dreads, let alone Ork ones, are popular choices... (sarcasm). How many other armies have received a 3rd wave? Oh I know one... IG, with it's Manticore/Deathstrike and final variant kit for the Russ.

[Mr Mystery]

Actually it's to do with channeling sales to their own online provider.

Seriously. GW Stock Levels are set centrally. You get your release allocation, which is pretty big (duh!) and after that? Stock is usually a coupe of boxes of everything. Stops dead stock to boot.

Want something that isn't presently on the shelves/out the back? Why, here's our friend Mr Terminal. Stick your order on that (and the good sales staff always get the odd add on. Lord knows I did!) pay at the till. Boof. Same result as having had it in stock, for a fraction of the cost to the company. Have it sent to your house, or the store. Eitherway it's most likely free.

And the other affect is to create a sense of demand. Hell, my local store keeps selling out of Necrons, and had the same thing happen with Grey Knights. Soon as the delivery arrived on a Thursday, people would be in, asking for stuff to be dug out and price up first. Half the time it doesn't get as far as the shelf! If your stock is 2, and demand is presently 4, then demand might as well look like 50 to the untrained eye.

ANY army that has a release is naturally going to see an upswing in sales. If it doesn't something has gone horribly, horribly wrong somewhere.

[Denzark]

[Citation needed]. I would like a full spreadsheet outlining the potential tactical and strategic applications of each individual army and unit in direct comparison to every other game system on the market. Especially historical. And I don't want your personal opinions on the matter, either. Just quantifiable proof.

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Well allow me to retort. My comment you quoted is purely opinion so needs no justification. Of interest backed up by some other quite veteran gamers on here. The potential tactical applications of every army is hugely varied (I can say this because you didn't specify SUCCESSFUL applications). I can't see how you could do a direct comparison against other games systems as they use different rules. You couldn't do a strategic outline as 40K is a tactical battle - even an Apocalypse game really. If you don't know the military accepted (both US and UK) definitions of tactical-operational-strategic-grand strategic you can't debate this with me.

Admittedly my comment which spawned your banality needs clarity - how do you know GW sales figures do not accurately track Orks? Can you state for a fact that it is not the case that they are tracked hyper-accurately and it is merely a supply problem keeping it from the store shelves? If so feel free to do so.

BTW Seattle is not the centre of the known universe by the way. It might be one of the haemorrhoids but you basing a fact on 4 local GWs ain't like gospel.

[GrogDaTyrant]

Admittedly my comment which spawned your banality needs clarity - how do you know GW sales figures do not accurately track Orks? Can you state for a fact that it is not the case that they are tracked hyper-accurately and it is merely a supply problem keeping it from the store shelves? If so feel free to do so.

Fair enough, allow me to retort to your inquiry. Believe it or not I was actually employed through Games Workshop, under their current US til system (and prior Microbiz one). Their system keeps track of product sold for restock purposes, and divides the SCUs up via category (as in army and game system). A vehicle purchased for the purposes of making a looted vehicle, let alone goblins purchased for the express purpose of making gretchin, did not (nor would they) be categorized under Orks.

Orks have historically been one of the armies in the game that have had the least accuracy for sales tracking, simply due to looted vehicles. That has changed however, as Looted vehicles are not as popular now, and Gretchin are conveniently sold in plastic box-sets.

BTW Seattle is not the centre of the known universe by the way.

Odd, I don't remember saying it was. In fact, I don't see how or why you would bother to think that.


In any case Denzark, one jack-hole post deserves a second in response. I could honestly care less about how much actual tactics and/or strategy you think 40k has.

[Wolfshade]

Those figures also don't show how many non-marine players stop playing 40k out of frustration (very common occurrence in my region)

I would argue that GW don't care how many non-marine players stop playing 40k while it remains profitable.
Also sales figures do not show how many people are active on the periphery, when the new BA codex came out I brought 2 boxes of sanguinary guard, 3 storm ravens and all the new finecast minis, that was when they were released, I haven't added to that army but I do play it weekly.
As for your point about Grots, I have none in my ork army...

[GrogDaTyrant]

I would argue that GW don't care how many non-marine players stop playing 40k while it remains profitable.
Also sales figures do not show how many people are active on the periphery, when the new BA codex came out I brought 2 boxes of sanguinary guard, 3 storm ravens and all the new finecast minis, that was when they were released, I haven't added to that army but I do play it weekly.
As for your point about Grots, I have none in my ork army...

Generally speaking, I'm in agreement with you and therefore not arguing that GW doesn't care how many players quit so long as there's profit. Anyways there's a lot of things sales figures don't show, which is my initial point. They don't show players who are still playing but not buying new models. And they don't show people buying models purely to convert for something else entirely. They are far from infallible.