Grey Knights 1500

[Learn2Eel]

My only gripe with the warding staves is that you pay a lot of points for a save that only works in melee.

[Bean]

My only gripe with the warding staves is that you pay a lot of points for a save that only works in melee.

I get it. I still think they're pretty good, but it is a lot of points. They're certainly not necessary.

[Learn2Eel]

Had a funny game today, my first use of a Dreadknight - I bought it simply because I decided that the three psyflemen dreadnoughts would be WAY over the top for a lot of people I face (i.e. they would think I'm a WAAC gamer) and plus because I thought it would be an awesome model to own.

Suffice to say, it more than impressed me on its first outing.

Given what little stuff of Grey Knights I have at the moment, I used him in a list that only had himself and a Land Raider Crusader starting on the board (Terminators and Librarian inside). Luckily for me, I got second turn and so could safely deploy both in a corner away from the majority of his firepower. He got the automatic night fighting warlord trait, meaning that all he could really do was zoom towards me. He had a Land Raider of his own, and came zooming at me with it. He made the mistake of charging it straight at my Dreadknight, not realizing that Dreadknights can take personal teleporters. In any case, I got a first turn charge with it and promptly destroyed the Land Raider.

What happened next was amazing. His ENTIRE ARMY shot at it. I'm not exaggerating. Mind you, he only had a handful of weapons that could actually ignore its armour save - my Librarian had earlier cast Foreboding (the 4+ invulnerable save blessing) on the Dreadknight as well. And from all of that he did a grand total of.....2 wounds. Oh and did I forget to mention Mr. Dreadknight, after being shot at by his entire army, was then charged by a 10 man assault squad with an attached Sanguinary Priest? Yeah. 2 wounds in total. And the only reason he died (about two-three turns later) was because I forgot to challenge his dual power-fist Captain, the only thing that could actually finish him off.

I know that I can expect to see a lot more plasma and melta than I saw in this list, but seriously, I was shocked. As far as I can tell, it did it's job twice over - being a massive distraction and thus a foil for my other units, and even making its points back. It ended up killing over 350 points, about 115 more than what it costed. From then on it wasn't difficult at all to steamroll the rest of my opponents army.

TLDR, I'm officially in love with the Dreadknight and as such will be running a pair of them in place of the three psyflmen dreadnoughts. The amount of (small arms) firepower they can survive is truly astonishing.
Just had to talk about how amazing this guy was today, sorry

[Seirin]

DKs are certainly useful if used right. Just don't expect many players to make the movement distance mistake - especially the players who are good enough for that to matter against. It's a very rare thing for me when I use a DK or two that they make their points back, but they do make fantastic distractions. The worst armies I've found for them are IG, nids and necrons so be ready.

For a piece of advice, I would seriously avoid using grand strategy on a DK to make it scoring. Reason being that it's pretty sure to die and waste the allocation.

[Learn2Eel]

DKs are certainly useful if used right. Just don't expect many players to make the movement distance mistake - especially the players who are good enough for that to matter against. It's a very rare thing for me when I use a DK or two that they make their points back, but they do make fantastic distractions. The worst armies I've found for them are IG, nids and necrons so be ready.

For a piece of advice, I would seriously avoid using grand strategy on a DK to make it scoring. Reason being that it's pretty sure to die and waste the allocation.

I know that the three psyflemen Dreadnoughts are better value but frankly they are a great way to alienate one from their fellow gamers I agree, the guy I was playing against had no idea that Dreadknights could take personal teleporters. Very few people will ever make that mistake, it's just funny that it happened in my first game with it. The big thing for me wasn't so much it's offensive capabilities - I truly have never seen a single model tank that much firepower. It was astonishing to say the least. I can only imagine how much firepower a pair of them will draw, which kind of balances out the loss of long-ranged power from the Dreadnoughts. Another army I have to be worried about is Dark Eldar.

Yeah I had that thought in that dual Stormraven list, now I don't need/want it because I have four scoring units as is - even at 1500. I'm still list tweaking at the moment, I've got a 10 man Terminator unit with Coteax to bunker down on my home objective and provide fire support (deep strikers, outflankers, etc beware). I've got three strike squads with a psycannon and daemon hammer in psybolt razorbacks. Then there's the two teleporting Dreadknights, but I can't fit in Incinerators. To me it's a good list without being overly cheesy, and there's a lot of unit redundancy; each unit can deal with infantry and vehicles and they complement each other nicely.

My concern is tactics. Shunting the Dreadknights on the first turn is a possibility but I'd rather they flank the advancing Razorbacks. With the Terminators, being my real assault unit (with plenty of dakka) is it worth keeping them back? Or should they advance as well depending on the mission? Having a third of my army in one unit and sitting in my backfield worries me, though it is one tough bunker unit that can combat squad as necessary. I'm still tossing up ideas.

[Seirin]

To say 'better value' isn't necessarily right. The way you use a DK vs a psyrifle is what sets them apart - either can be used to great effect.

If you can fit the purifiers into a razorback its much more efficient.

As for tactics - you really have to play it by ear and do what the situation calls for. Predict the opponent and try to do the unexpected (within reason).

Shunting the DKs is all well and good but if you do and they lack shooting weapons then they basically become sitting ducks. Not always bad, but a consideration.

Dark eldar haven't been a problem for me honestly. Granted that we play very different armies, the mobility of your lists would cause DE a fair amount of issue once your used to them.

[Learn2Eel]

To say 'better value' isn't necessarily right. The way you use a DK vs a psyrifle is what sets them apart - either can be used to great effect.

If you can fit the purifiers into a razorback its much more efficient.

As for tactics - you really have to play it by ear and do what the situation calls for. Predict the opponent and try to do the unexpected (within reason).

Shunting the DKs is all well and good but if you do and they lack shooting weapons then they basically become sitting ducks. Not always bad, but a consideration.

Dark eldar haven't been a problem for me honestly. Granted that we play very different armies, the mobility of your lists would cause DE a fair amount of issue once your used to them.

Yeah I agree, when I said that I was thinking more along the line of number-crunching math-hammer lol. The Dreadnoughts will probably make their points back easier but they are nowhere near as good at drawing fire as the Dreadknights are - nor are they anywhere near as durable.

You think maybe a Purifier spam list? I'd probably have to drop the Terminators and Coteaz in that case. There's no denying the value though. For an extra 25 points per squad I lose Warp Quake but get +1 attack, Fearless, an extra psycannon and Cleansing Flame. That and melee weapons are cheaper - even running two halberds for an extra four points would be a good idea. I know I wouldn't make many friends at my store though

Yeah I'd rather just have them move up and support the rest of my mobile forces rather than shunt usually, though as you say, if the situation calls for it then it is a good option to have. No-one wants two very menacing monstrous creatures that are tough to kill right next to them on the first turn.

The only issue I think I'd really have with Dark Eldar is that my Dreadknights would be very susceptible to the sheer amount of poisoned and AP2 shots they tend to have. Other than that, if my Dreadknights get into melee safe and sound they won't die - they'll just be tarpitted by wyches instead lol.

[Learn2Eel]

I took the Purifier suggestion and ran with it, coming up with a 1500 point army list in the process. The difference between my previous army list (with the strike squads, coteaz, 10 terminators, etc) and the Purifier list is astonishing. I did a number crunch for shooting and worked out that if all units are stationary (simple stat workings) the Purifier list not only puts out 76 shots to the SS lists 73, but in those total shots it has about 16 more psycannon shots. And given the way I want to combat-squad my Purifiers, the Purifier list will be getting far more stationary psycannon shots than the SS list. The rest of the numbers would simply be unnecessary waffling.

HQ
Castellan Crowe - 150

Troops
Purifiers (10) w/ four psycannons, two daemon hammers, four halberds, razorback w/ psybolt - 348
Purifiers (10) w/ four psycannons, two daemon hammers, four halberds, razorback w/ psybolt - 348
Terminators (5) w/ psycannon, psybolt - 245

Heavy Support
Nemesis Dreadknight w/ personal teleporter - 205
Nemesis Dreadknight w/ personal teleporter - 205
1501

If someone has an issue with the 1 point over I can just drop a halberd on one of my Purifiers, no biggie.
Anyway, the plan is to combat squad each Purifier unit; having four psycannons and a hammer deploy in cover or move into cover on the first turn with good line of sight for the battlefield, and the four halberds and other daemon hammer to go in the Razorback. The Dreadknights are intended to be distraction units that I will use to destroy targets of opportunity and anything my psycannons may potentially struggle with - such as Land Raiders or Monoliths - or even to tarpit nasty combat units that can't really damage it but would otherwise hurt my other units. The Terminators are there mostly because I already have their models and they are a rock-hard scoring unit that is quite scary in combat, also because I couldn't figure out what to spend the other points on. Crowe can do as he pleases - I realize he is an easy target for First Blood but frankly the Razorbacks may as well be too. I'm thinking of either keeping him in my backfield to scare off/tarpit would-be attackers of my psycannon units or running him up behind the Razorbacks and charging into a suitable unit.

One of the big things I noticed about this list is not only how much raw damage it dishes out in both shooting and combat, but also the target saturation. Do I shoot at the two jumping Dreadknights that can make mince-meat of my heavy weapons squads and vehicles? Do I shoot at the two psycannon squads that are tearing up my transports and heavy infantry? Do I shoot at the Razorbacks that are at best an annoyance, but are carrying deadly melee units inside? Do I shoot at the nasty Terminator unit walking up to my army/deep-striking in my back-field? Do I shoot at his tax? A good army list can counter this pretty well, and a good player would probably destroy the Razorbacks early - letting the melee Purifiers get close is bad enough so shooting them early is a good idea. The Dreadknights realistically won't do as much damage as my other units, but they are still scary as hell and can easily annihilate many heavy (and expensive) vehicles or units my opponent might have. The Terminators are....well...Terminators, and kitted out in a very nasty way. The psycannon squads are probably the most obvious target, but being marines, they are never "easy" to kill, especially if they find cover. This is the kind of army where one really needs to neutralize one target at a time - wasting select shots at Dreadknights, for example, just irritates them.

So, army weaknesses. Surprisingly, this army list has only one less model than the other army list and is obviously a lot more 'elite'. A 30 model strong Grey Knights army is nothing to sneeze at. Still, I pay the points for every single model - the cheapest model in my army is 26 points. Sheer weight of firepower will mess me up. If I follow my basic plan (which I can freely change to adapt to different situations) it leaves my psycannons very exposed - I can't really hide them behind other models. My melee Purifiers can't charge when they hop out of their Razorbacks, and they lack any serious ranged firepower - though for an assault unit 10 storm bolter shots is pretty good - and can and will be gunned down in short order if I am not careful with their positioning. The Dreadknights lack ranged weapons and as such are - as a previous poster put - sitting ducks if they do a shunt on the first turn. They also have no way of mitigating bad melee rolls. Crowe is an obvious feeder model - unless I get the first turn and I am in position to fire my psycannons from the get go at some tasty targets, I will more than likely concede First Blood - though of course I can always hide him behind a Razorback. The Terminators are forced to either foot-slog and tank damage or deep-strike and be shot at when they come down. Being Terminators, this isn't a massive issue and Relentless gives them a good bubble to provide fire support on the move, but it still isn't ideal.

I must really apologize for constantly making new army lists that take wildly different directions, but I guess that's the point - I'm learning and adapting to what would be better. Also because I don't want to buy models that I will end up leaving at home more often than not. Thanks a bunch guys.

As an aside, I came up with this at 2000;

2000
Castellan Crowe - 150

Troops
Purifiers (10) w/ four psycannons, two daemon hammers, four halberds, razorback w/ psybolt - 348
Purifiers (10) w/ four psycannons, two daemon hammers, four halberds, razorback w/ psybolt - 348
Purifiers (10) w/ four psycannons, two daemon hammers, four halberds, razorback w/ psybolt - 348
Terminators (5) w/ psycannon, psybolt - 245

Heavy Support
Nemesis Dreadknight w/ personal teleporter - 205
Nemesis Dreadknight w/ personal teleporter - 205
Purgation Squad w/ four incinerators, razorback w/ psybolt - 150
1999

[RGilbert26]

Why are you running dreadknights with no weapons?

[Learn2Eel]

Do they really need them?
Given the new DCCW rules, the Greatsword and the Hammer aren't really worth it.
The ranged weapons aren't that great - the psilencer and psycannon are far too expensive for what they do, and the incinerator is good but still a 30 point upgrade that isn't necessary.
The only one I'd give them is the Incinerator - the Dreadknight I have is modeled with one - but it's 30 points that I can spend elsewhere. That 30 points pays for three psycannons on my Purifiers.
The Dreadknight would obviously be better with a gun but I don't see them as worth the price of admission. As a jump monstrous creature his purpose is to scare the crap out of my opponent and have them focus fire on him. If he survives, I want him to get into combat ASAP. I have to be wary of hordes - which the Incinerator would be amazing against - but considering his movement options, it's not like I'd be forced into such a conflict too often.

Essentially, I look at what works best for the army as a whole. I save 60 points on the Dreadknights that pay for 6 psycannons, which will do a heck of a lot more damage usually than 2 heavy incinerators. The Dreadknights suffer but my army gets a big buff to its overall dakka.