Did the Nemesis Dreadknight get better?

[kjolnir]

Kjolnir: Here are some things that on the light of 6th can be said has reduced the power of GK:

- Force weapons now ap3.

Still rapes all MCs except for the Tyrannofex.

Aside from hammers, every single unit in gk army wont be just rolling over everything anymore (well, atleast not with 2+ save )

So either I have to take all Terminators, all something with invul saves, or all Tyrannofex's, etc? Come on.

Does Crowe still cause Purifiers to be troops? Yes? Then there's nothing in 6th that ends the stupidest possible list in the whole game. Though if someone does that now, I'll just Vector Strike them into oblivion, and never land until they're all dead.

- Vehicles got nerfed (assault aspects from rhinos / razorbacks atleast). No longer can you just hop out and finish your enemy. (true with all armies, but it hurts gk alot anyway)

I agree with you here, but this wasn't exclusive to GKs. Vehicles, IMO, are sucky death traps now. Winged MCs with Str 5/6 guns will fly behind one and glance it into the ground. Only things with AV 13/14 are safe. Transports are weak, IMO. Dreadnoughts, same story.

- Stormbolters arent that great when compared to rapid fire weapons anymore (but still getting assault, so its more balanced that way i quess)

And then they take psybolt ammo and make them awesome-er.

- probably no point in taking this up with nids BUT, GK being only imperial army that cant have battle-brother allies, making them from the imperial point of view, a little less prone to all those nasty ally-combos..

haha yeah.

Also, if I read correctly, there's nothing that prevents a 'Nid player from taking fortifications.

I will never do this. I can find no reasonable explanation for why a Nid would be able to not man, but somehow reprogram a fortification's emplacements to fire at what used to be friendlies.

[DarkLink]

Ally combos are overrated. I'd like to see someone actually post a combo that would be truly broken, because I haven't seen one yet. People just talk about it, kind of like a magical unicorn.

Hmm what do you mean by that?

I mean that, as a unit gets more expensive, their abilities must grow exponentially to keep up.

A bonus attack isn't worth 10pts each on an entire unit of 20pt models. It's not even worth 5pts. It's worth maybe 1 or 2, because you're increasing the cost of the unit drastically while only increasing it's damage output in one small part of the game, while ignoring all other aspects of the game. Otherwise, all Marine would be absurdly overpriced and Guardsmen would just lasgun them to death effortlessly. Instead, Marines pay an appropriate amount for their +1 WS/BS/S/T/Ld/3+ save/ATSKNF.

GW did a very good job of understanding this with the new GK codex, even if most GK haters haven't. For their extra points, GKs get psychic powers, force weapons, psycannons, storm bolters, etc. Paladins get an extra wound. Purifiers get more psychic powers, Fearless, and an extra attack. If it weren't for that, GKs would be as impotent as the old Daemonhunter codex.

They failed in this with the Dreadknight, though, at least for the most part. In 5th, MCs weren't that good. Stuff that ignores a 2+ is common, and then you've only got a 5+ invuln and 4 wounds. You die extremely quickly. And the Dreadknight is very expensive to boot. And none of its guns are very good compared to other units you could get for much cheaper elsewhere in the codex, particularly psyrifle Dreads.

The Dreadknight wasn't so weak you couldn't use it effectively, but it was definitely below the average of the power curve.

Now, a lot of other stuff has been nerfed and MCs have been mildly buffed, and the Dreadknight in particular now gets the str 10 it was probably always supposed to have (and, btw, I accidentally played 3 games thinking it was str 10 because I forgot about that rules glitch and the game didn't explode. In fact, there was hardly any difference because in reality, there's rarely any difference between str 6 and str 10). Dreadknights are probably about average, now, so I'm going to play them more.

Please don't tell me you view the GKs as anything this side of reasonable.

Hah, and here it goes. I'll give you a pass because you play nidz, though you really should be able to differentiate between your army's weakness (which just got a big buff in a lot of ways) and GK's strengths.

The only thing that was ever broken about the codex was Rad/psykotroke grenades and the cheapness of psyrifle dreads and razorbacks. Vehicles got a big nerf now, so that's done, and Paladins are easier to shoot to death. Crowe and Purifier spam was always overrated. And while Coteaz was very good, now small acolyte units in vehicles suck so that problem's gone. And that right there covers every single GK list that could actually be considered broken.

As for the rest of the codex, really, all I can say is learn to play better. One or two specific items gave an otherwise average competitive list a good advantage, but that advantage was never as big as the haters claimed it was.

I forget where it was posted, maybe rankings HQ, but someone did an analysis of how many major tournament wins each codex had, and how highly they'd placed. That's thousands of games all across the world. And, yes, GKs came out on top. But only by a narrow margin over SWs and the other competitive codices. If you ignore Tau and maybe nidz and one or two other, weaker books, the game as a whole at the end of 5th was actually very balanced, and that includes GKs. Not that that made razorback spam fun to play against, but your argument is invalid.

[kjolnir]

Hah, and here it goes. I'll give you a pass because you play nidz, though you really should be able to differentiate between your army's weakness (which just got a big buff in a lot of ways) and GK's strengths.

That's my point. My weaknesses against GKs were due to the rules, not my ability as a player. That's the definition of "broken."

But, I do agree that Nids got a buff. The Flying MC rules are huge.

The only thing that was ever broken about the codex was Rad/psykotroke grenades and the cheapness of psyrifle dreads and razorbacks.

And psycannons, and purifier spam and I6 2W Termies with offensive grenades, and so on...

Vehicles got a big nerf now, so that's done

Agreed.

and Paladins are easier to shoot to death.

In what way? I'm not familiar with how Paladins are effected.

Crowe and Purifier spam was always overrated.

Ha! Speak for yourself kemo sabe.

As for the rest of the codex, really, all I can say is learn to play better.

Ha! A GK player used to rolfstomping everyone with the most broken army in all of 40k, and his advice is L2P. Now THAT'S funny!

One or two specific items gave an otherwise average competitive list a good advantage, but that advantage was never as big as the haters claimed it was.

Ha!

I forget where it was posted, maybe rankings HQ, but someone did an analysis of how many major tournament wins each codex had, and how highly they'd placed. That's thousands of games all across the world. And, yes, GKs came out on top. But only by a narrow margin over SWs and the other competitive codices. If you ignore Tau and maybe nidz and one or two other, weaker books, the game as a whole at the end of 5th was actually very balanced, and that includes GKs. Not that that made razorback spam fun to play against, but your argument is invalid..

Bwahahahahahahahaha!!!! Ok.

So in other words, I was right the whole time, and only by ignoring reality and pretending that up to as many as four codices didn't exist were GKs sane.

Got it. Thanks.

[celestialatc]

No, it just brings back unpleasant memories of people not reading the entire rule entry in 5th and insisting they got double strength from a Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon. It also makes 10 points for a hammer and the presence of Hammerhand rather pointless. It smacks of something overlooked not a design.

I'm not sure if this would be affect by it, but can Hammerhands effect the Hammer of Wrath attack? Also I am now seeing the Dreadknight for what it is, the Monstrous Creature killer. It has a good change of getting one wound on an MC and can then Forceweapon it to death (unless MCs now have Eternal Weapon...which might....unless FW now ignores that...urrgghh so many rules to read).

[kjolnir]

I'm not sure if this would be affect by it, but can Hammerhands effect the Hammer of Wrath attack? Also I am now seeing the Dreadknight for what it is, the Monstrous Creature killer. It has a good change of getting one wound on an MC and can then Forceweapon it to death (unless MCs now have Eternal Weapon...which might....unless FW now ignores that...urrgghh so many rules to read).

I'm not aware of any Tyranid MCs that have Eternal Warrior. MCs are not given Eternal Warrior by the BRB.

[celestialatc]

I'm not aware of any Tyranid MCs that have Eternal Warrior. MCs are not given Eternal Warrior by the BRB.

Than excellent! Forceweapons in the face for all!

[kjolnir]

Than excellent! Forceweapons in the face for all!

Well...FWs are only AP 3. Which means TFexes are a lot tougher by comparison.

And many Tyranid MCs are Synapse, or are going to be within 12" of one that is. So it's not a free-for-all MC pinata explosion party by any means.

Non-Tyranid MCs...maybe.

[DarkLink]

You can't use a force weapon for your Hammer of Wrath attack. Dreadknights have to wait 'till I4 for that.

That's my point. My weaknesses against GKs were due to the rules, not my ability as a player. That's the definition of "broken."

But it was your codex that was broken, not the GKs. Cruddance did a very poor job of balancing your codex.

And psycannons, and purifier spam and I6 2W Termies with offensive grenades, and so on...

And soon, GKs are back to being the worst army in the game. You need to learn to differentiate between 'good' and 'broken'.

Rad/Psykotroke grenades are broken, though. That's actually the only thing in the whole codex that truly broken. There's other stuff that's underpriced (psybolts on dreadnoughts) and a bit too good in certain situations (cleansing flame), but most of the other stuff is just powerful enough to make up for how expensive GKs are. It's a very fine line to tread, and Ward could have done a significantly worse job than he did.

In what way? I'm not familiar with how Paladins are effected.

Wound allocation and assault nerfs in general. Multi-charges are nerfed, and it's easier to shoot Paladins to death. That's how that army functioned. You wound allocated everything away, and shoved the army down your opponent's throat. That doesn't work so well any more.

Crowe and Purifier spam was always overrated.

Ha! Speak for yourself kemo sabe.

Cleansing flame is silly against hordes. But against everything else, not so much. Purifiers are very expensive, and I've only very rarely seen an army with Crowe in the top spots at any major tournament.

Ha! A GK player used to rolfstomping everyone with the most broken army in all of 40k, and his advice is L2P. Now THAT'S funny!

I get to say it because I had a winning record with the old Daemonhunters codex. Y'know, back when it was tied with Necrons for the worst codex in the game. And I didn't complain about how broken Space Wolves or IG were, either. I just learned to face and beat them.

Plus, just from observing top tournament games, the problem with dealing with GKs has more to do with player skill than numerical advantage. GKs absolutely have weaknesses, but unlike most army's weaknesses they're not in the stats or wargear (for the most part, GKs don't have any high ap ranged shooting, or melta), they're in the strategy the army uses. If you know how to deal with the tactics and strategies available to GKs, you win. If not, you lose. It's difficult for less competitive players to grasp those weaknesses, and so GKs seem invincible even when they're not.

Bwahahahahahahahaha!!!! Ok.

So in other words, I was right the whole time, and only by ignoring reality and pretending that up to as many as four codices didn't exist were GKs sane.

Got it. Thanks.

GKs having a tiny advantage over the other top codices is very, very different from being broken. And, again, the problem with the lower tier codices is those codices, not the GKs. Level your hate at Robin Cruddance, not Ward.

Plus, now that 6th is out, it looks more and more like GKs were balanced based on a lot of the stuff planned for 6th ed. That gave them an edge in 5th, but now most of any unfair advantage they might have had is gone.

[kjolnir]

You can't use a force weapon for your Hammer of Wrath attack. Dreadknights have to wait 'till I4 for that.

Sure you can. Force weapon effects are triggered on unsaved Wounds. Are you or are you not rolling To Wound when you resolve a Hammer of Wrath attack? Same deal with Poison, Rending, Boneswords, etc, all those "special" effects take place on Wound rolls or failed saves against Wounds. If you're not rolling to Wound on a HoW auto-hit, what are you rolling?

But it was your codex that was broken, not the GKs. Cruddance did a very poor job of balancing your codex.

LOL!! That's an interesting way of looking at it.

And soon, GKs are back to being the worst army in the game. You need to learn to differentiate between 'good' and 'broken'.

I think that remains to be seen. Just as it remains to be seen whether or not Tyranid Flying MCs are as awesome as I think they are.

Rad/Psykotroke grenades are broken, though.

Agreed.

Wound allocation and assault nerfs in general. Multi-charges are nerfed, and it's easier to shoot Paladins to death. That's how that army functioned. You wound allocated everything away, and shoved the army down your opponent's throat. That doesn't work so well any more.

Are you referring to the closest-furthest shooting wound allocation? Have you taken into account mixed saves and Look Out, Sir, that allow for more creative ways to assign those wounds? All Paladins are Characters, after all.

Sure they still get double-toughed by Anti-vehicle weapons, but that's no different now than in 5th. Now, however, with mixed saves, you can put your 2+/3+ guy up front, and if you make all the saves on him, you're 2+/5+ guys won't even get touched. I think that's better than before, where you HAD to allocate wounds to your 2+/5+ guys if you took enough.

Cleansing flame is silly against hordes.

In other words, against lists most Nid/Ork players played. So come on.

I get to say it because I had a winning record with the old Daemonhunters codex. Y'know, back when it was tied with Necrons for the worst codex in the game. And I didn't complain about how broken Space Wolves or IG were, either. I just learned to face and beat them.

Right, right. So if Flying MCs are as awesome as I think they're going to be and I go around roflstomping players which I know to be otherwise very good, I'm just going to tell them to L2P, and hope that they don't hate me too much.

Plus, just from observing top tournament games, the problem with dealing with GKs has more to do with player skill than numerical advantage.

Right, right. L2P. Got it.

GKs having a tiny advantage over the other top codices is very, very different from being broken. And, again, the problem with the lower tier codices is those codices, not the GKs. Level your hate at Robin Cruddance, not Ward.

1) The advantage isn't tiny.
2) It's broken.
3) Mat Ward is the anti-Christ.

Plus, now that 6th is out, it looks more and more like GKs were balanced based on a lot of the stuff planned for 6th ed. That gave them an edge in 5th, but now most of any unfair advantage they might have had is gone.

So you admit they had unfair advantages in 5th? Thanks!

We'll see how it plays out in 6th. "True" balance after all should produce nothing but stalemates if you think about it, and stalemates would only be broken by player skill. Think Chess. The fact that skill can be trumped by rules argues against balance, not for it.

[celestialatc]

Well...FWs are only AP 3. Which means TFexes are a lot tougher by comparison.

And many Tyranid MCs are Synapse, or are going to be within 12" of one that is. So it's not a free-for-all MC pinata explosion party by any means.

Non-Tyranid MCs...maybe.

Well unless I am reading this incorrectly, DCCW are AP 2....and NDCCW are DCCW with force weapon instant death power but treated as a DCCW in all other respects.