"Elite"

[EmperorEternalXIX]

So...I play as the Space Marines. Only the Space Marines. Always the Space Marines. Fanatical devotion to the preservation of mankind is my thing, and I really love the heroic Spartan-like warriors of the Imperium of Man.

Bottom line. The elite armies, ones like the Space Marines, are suffering in the current GW climate. Why? Because of the newfound joys of horde armies.

In the newest Tyranid rumours, they are saying that gaunts are going to be 3 points each and come stock Without Number. In the new Guard codex, guardsmen are dirt cheap and can field high-damage output weaponry on their transports en masse -- I have a friend whose HALF of a tournament list has more tanks on it than me and my partner's entire 2500 points does. The ork codex is another offender, with very cheap toughness 4 bodies that put out a horrendous amount of attacks on the charge.

GW seems to have picked up on the idea that horde armies are money in the bank as people go out and triple their basic model counts at stores in order to max out their three or four troop choices to the 100 models their updates are granting instead of the 40 they had before.

On the other side of the fence, the elite low model count armies are getting more expensive and are being granted outrageous abilities to compensate (things like Sternguard ammo, THSS Termies, and the whole Space Wolf codex). The thing is, it really isn't working, and the scale is very off.

Personally I am a bit upset. Surely GW realizes there is money to be made if, say, the cost of a basic marine was lowered. Then I too would be going out to buffer my force with new models. I would still be an elite minimal force, but my model count would be scaling up slightly, versus these massive horde armies. Instead they are trying to balance it by giving us things like the Jaws of the World Wolf power. I know it might seem like senseless pissing and crying but I am just upset that we are not seeing the same sort of balancing trends the horde guys are. I would rather have 65 marines on the table instead of 50, than something stupidly powerful on a one-trick pony 300-point super model.

The Wolves will at least feel correct, in that they will be total badasses. Other elite armies do not feel right, however; Chaos, other SMs, Necrons...none of them feel like their lore conveys they should. The new game paradigm bodes well for later updates -- the idea of T6 Slow and Purposeful Necron Troops does not seem so unlikely anymore, for example. This would be much better and more realistic to the fluff then, say, giving them an HQ that twin-links their gauss weapons. Unfortunately the latter is more likely; GW seems to think having us spend 20 dollars on a new HQ model with an uber-move is the only way to make money off of elite armies.

When the new Tyranids land, they will be able to field some terrifying numbers. For the cost of one naked tactical squad in the current Space Marine codex, you will be able to field 60 Without Number Gaunts. Now of course we don't know how the rumours will play out fully, but ultimately...this is madness. In Warhammer 40k, you can only use a single squad to perform a singular action (attacking another unit, for example). How on earth is an Elite army supposed to stop a list that can take this many models, even at Toughness 2?

What are the answers? What can be done to bring Elite armies in line with the newfound superhordes that seem to be mounting in force on all sides?

[Disclaimer: This was more of an editorial than a post, I just felt like sharing my opinions on the current meta game.]

[Skragger]

I feel its more fluffy this way..

Example: The imperial guard does not rely on hulking armoured warriors to win its fights like the space marines do, it relies on its tanks, and more importantly, the infantry. Can you imagine how much suckidge a game would be for guard if they DIDN'T have cheap models?

Guard survive because they can field so much infantry, its what lets them stand up to the hulking behemoths in 3+ armour save armour. They are only weak humans afterall

Really thats what it boils down to, S4, T4, 3+ save. Marines are expensive for just that reason. Lets look at a standard ork boy

WS4, BS2, S3, T4, A2, I2, 6+ armour. How balls is that? They're suprisingly easy to kill, the only thing that gives them their armour save is lasguns, and they cant shoot worth a poopoo. With squads of 30 one will routinely have them cut down to about a third by the time they've crossed the table, so you need SOMETHING to keep them worthwhile, thats where the number of attacks and bulk of numbers come into play. As for your concerns with assault, they DO have Initiative 2 you know, so unless you're necrons or a squad entirely armed with powerfists you DO strike first..

Orks and Guard (and soon Nids) simply dont have the survivability or the stats of Marines, so they need to make up for it with numbers. Its the most logical answer.

Plus is makes for more variety of playing: two space marine armies going at it is the dullest thing around, 3+ saves galore. I love watching horde armies go at it because each army gets a good amount of shooty in then there's always some tastey assault.

You should try getting out of your 3+ save world, and run a small xeno army (or guard) for a while, then everything will become clear. Horde armies can be beaten down fairly easily.. you just need to know how to do it (bloody hellhounds..)

[Xas]

just to correct something: if a gaunt costs 3 points standard this means your normal termagaunt will still cost 5 points which is only 1 point cheaper than normal. tyranids have to buy their weapon ontop of the torso.


on the issue itself all I can say is: tactics.
in fluff the eltie armies use superiour tactic and local strenght maximisation to win conflcits. you have to do the same on the tabletop.

your forces are dense and their armor allows them to deploy even more dense (because 3+ save prevents 66% of damage agaisnt most templates they can field) while they naturally take more space and ahve to spread around to not get punished by templates.


against orks one of my favourite units is a 20 man squad of chaos marines with 2 flamers, a fist and an icon of nurlge (t5). this squad regularly takes on 3-4 ork mobs on itself during one game earning its points back twice.

they key really is maneuvring. they only ahve to fight one squad of orks a time because the orks are too pressed by my havoc launcher rhinos, vindicators and flamer templates to deploy too dense. because orks usually are outgunned they are pressed to move forward asap. this means you allmost allways have the choice to either fire a full salvo of rapid fire bolters into them or fire pistols, flamers and charge. I usually go for the 2nd option unless there is another full strenght squad which could easily charge me after I whipped the orks out.

say I fire assoult and charge I'm looking at around 8 hits from the two flamers (whide spread out orks and unfavourably palced flamers usually end that way ) and another 7 hits from pistols resulting in an overall ~6-8 dead orks depending on luck and if they get cover against pistols or not. then I charge in with around 48A hitting 24, wounding 12, killing 10. so 12-14 orks remain and score 36A, 18hits, 3 wounds (s3 vs t5) and 1 kill, nob kills another 1-3, my fist kills ~1 so he looses another ~9 orks to no retreat wounds and I'm left to butcher the remaining few orks in his phase to regroup and then fully operate in my turn. after this I had a tradeoff of ~3 marines for a full 30 man squad of orks

say I rapid fire and let them charge me. this nets around 37shots, 24hits, 12wounds. as this is only suitable if the orks sit in the open this is 12 dead. then 18 orks assoult. get 38 attacks to the face, 19hits, 10wounds another 8 dead. so 9 orks strike with 36A, 18hits and 6wounds, 2kills. nob another 2-3, my fist kills 1 ork. results in 9 vs 4-5. with a bit of luck (or a kill or two in the shooting from another squad/vehicle) the orks are no longer fearless due to beeing under 10 and get run down.


rinse and repeat 4 times and you end up with prolly 5-10 marines left (enough to conveniently hold one objective) and 120 orks killed. there is basically no chance for the orks unless the manage to get more squads in at once. space marines can prolly do similars with sternguard (more killy in shooting thanks to special ammonitions but not as resilent as t5). additionally rhinos are great as mobile terrain, blocking assoult lines. if your 10 marines fight against only 9 orks worth of attacks thanks to two rhinos only letting a few trough you allmost have a chance even with tacticals.

[EmperorEternalXIX]

I believe the S4 T4 3+ Save is an overrated statline. When you only have 50 models in your army, you are simply 50 rolls of 1-2 away from being tabled.

Warhammer is all about actions. If you only have 6 squads, and the enemy has 18, then he has many more opportunities to harm your units then you do. People often say stuff to me like "use two tactical squads to double up on that Ork squad" ... you know that is 25% of the entire Space Marine army to defeat one squad (that usually costs less than the two units I've committed to the fight, and usually won't be completely killed).

What do you think happens if the elite army has to double or triple team a single targeted horde unit to defeat or counter it effectively? The average SM army would only be able to effectively engage a relative handful of targets -- maybe 4 or 5 at most. Compared to say, an IG army, which can pour fire on an often 3::1 ratio across the entire opposing elite army very easily, and usually with stronger fire. Just because it hits less often doesn't make it less potent...in favorable dice situations the damage potential is much higher for horde armies.

It's not all about defeat, either. Most marine units can be neutralized by other things; being locked in assault, forcing heavy weapons bearer to move, a lack of viable targets, etc. This happens much less often to the horde armies, as they have more armies covering more ground with more weaponry.

BS3 and T3 doesn't even remotely make up for these facts, and are not nearly the handicaps players claim them to be.

In the above example using orks, it describes using a masterful manipulation of the game situation and includes assumptions about perfect mathhammer averages and still requires multiple points of investment just to neutralize one squad, and leaves the marine squad decimated to nearly worthlessness afterward. It also doesn't even take into account the other 10+ units of the Ork army, all of which are significantly more dangerous than a barely-upgraded squad of boyz that are all alone on the field somewhere.

You should try getting out of your 3+ save world, and run a small xeno army (or guard) for a while, then everything will become clear. Horde armies can be beaten down fairly easily.. you just need to know how to do it (bloody hellhounds..)

The idea that the 3+ save is some insulated bubble really means nothing to me. Every model lost hurts bad to a Space Marine, and almost every upgraded weapon option in the game affects them heavily (flamers multiply hits severely for wound spam and anything else is easier to wound and may even ignore armor).

The concept that the 3+ save is somehow insulating is foolish, to me. I lose models every time I get shot at or assaulted, even if it is only 1 or 2; but I am getting shot at or assaulted MUCH more often and by many more potential hits then people are accounting for. The 3+ save is not as useful as people think, and every squad is still 10 rolls of 1-2 away from being gone. When you consider there will only be a handful of these aforementioned squads, they actually play pretty...fragile, for lack of a better term. I have earned many victories by cowering or hiding or trying desperately to minimize my casualties, while these horde heroes triumphantly charge screaming into my lines with reckless abandon. 2 crappy units at half the cost will ALWAYS be potentially more effective than 1 decent unit at twice the cost.

It might sound arrogrant, but I find horde armies to be very noobish and fail-proof. I don't like to win, I like to play and really live the fluff on the tabletop. I can't imagine how I would lose at all often with, say, an Imperial Guard army, other than complete and utter carelessness.

[Drunkencorgimaster]

I don't know EE19... I find your writing style a bit opaque at times, but on the other hand you do have a much deeper level of insight into this game then me and you understand the rules far better than myself. If I have read your post correctly, I think I follow your concerns here -especially in the case of the Orks. I do not see how a biker-marine army like the White Scars can stand a chance against those endless waves of green.

Maybe elite armes should be allowed to split-fire, like the Longfangs do? The difference being that all units in an elite army would have this option. Perhaps reducing horde armies' morale-abilities might help. It would be more realistic (and fun) to have a realistic chance that chain-reaction morale failures could sweep entire Ork, Nid, or Guard armies from the field on occassion. On the other hand, one downside to Guard-horde armies my son stumbled across a couple weekends ago is that in an "annihilate" scenario it is much easier to eliminate more 10-man units of guards than it is to eliminate an equal or greater number of Space Marine units.

I do not see these levels of unbalance in other gaming systems. On the other hand, I also do not see as much fun!

Am I correct in thinking that you have moved around to my position on the lack of balance in the game in the few months or so? Or am I about to get one of your famous mega-lectures?

[Aldramelech]

I do not see these levels of unbalance in other gaming systems.

Play WW2 1943 onwards as the Germans, you'll feel just like a Space Marine.

[EmperorEternalXIX]

Am I correct in thinking that you have moved around to my position on the lack of balance in the game in the few months or so? Or am I about to get one of your famous mega-lectures?

I don't consider the game unbalanced, just...illogical. My space marines always feel like they are hitting the board with a phantom squad or two in reserve that will never arrive. It is strange to feel like you are losing a fight before you hit the board. Ultimately the casualties I take are vastly too costly compared to a horde army.

[Drunkencorgimaster]

I do not see these levels of unbalance in other gaming systems.

Play WW2 1943 onwards as the Germans, you'll feel just like a Space Marine.

I'd love to feel like a Space Marine! Energy, stamina, buff-build. I could probably play for the NFL, or be on an Australian rugby team, or even compete in the Hill-Billy Hick rodeos they hold around here.

[Lerra]

Try playing Deathwing!

There is nothing more satisfying that taking your 15 terminators versus a sea of orks or tyranids and wiping them to a man, though.

[Aldramelech]

I'd love to feel like a Space Marine! Energy, stamina, buff-build. I could probably play for the NFL, or be on an Australian rugby team, or even compete in the Hill-Billy Hick rodeos they hold around here.

You have Rodeos? Cool! lol

I don't want to feel like a Space Marine, I couldn't take all that homo-erotic tension!