"Elite"

[sketchesofpayne]

Actually, I used to outnumber my Ork, Guard, and Tyranid buddies with my Space Marine infantry. Now they outnumber me like it should be.

[Melissia]

The Imperial Guard is the primary and most important fighting force of the Imperium, of course they should be able to dish out the damage. I don't see why you're complaining about this.

Orks are a brutal barbaric horde of powerful, deadly monsters whom do not fear death. They SHOULD outnumber the Marines-- they outnumber all races in the galaxy combined in the fluff.

Tyranids generally rely primarily on overwhelming their opponents with cheap, expendable troops, then bringing in the big hitters while the cheaper troops have the enemy bogged down. They nearly destroyed the Ultramarines. A pity they didn't.



There are around a million loyalist Marines in the galaxy at any given time. There are many times more planets in the Imperium than there are individual Marines. The Marines, technically speaking, are not present in the vast majority of battles fought whether on Imperial soil or not. Don't let how common they are in the tabletop cloud your memory of how common they actually are in the fluff.

[Katie Drake]

The biggest failing of 5th edition in my mind is that cover saves are so abundant and effective. This makes the armies like Orks, Tyranids and Guard far more survivable than their points cost reflects. An Ork Boy might appear easy to kill when you take a look at his statline, but try tacking on a 4+ save against most of the weapons in the game and all of the sudden he becomes too much for his low points cost. The more elite armies like the Space Marines don't benefit from cover as much as horde armies do, so they become more vulnerable to weapons that pour out lots of shots than their cost would suggest.

[Exitus Acta Probat]

There are around a million loyalist Marines in the galaxy at any given time. There are many times more planets in the Imperium than there are individual Marines. The Marines, technically speaking, are not present in the vast majority of battles fought whether on Imperial soil or not. Don't let how common they are in the tabletop cloud your memory of how common they actually are in the fluff.

QFT
It is as it should be.

Emp:
Simple fact of the matter, SM armies are one of the most prevalent on the field.
Why?
Because they are one of the most forgiving, rewarding and potentially powerful.

Marines, and to a lesser degree (depending on your viewpoint) CSMs, are the most ubiquitous 'take all comers' armies out there. ALL FLAVORS of marines.

[Katie Drake]

Because they are one of the most forgiving, rewarding and potentially powerful.

That's not true. Marines aren't one of the most powerful armies in the game - at least not since their new Codex arrived. They've done rather poorly in all the most competitive events save 'Ard Boyz, where a few ran Vulkan and Friends, but even still Guard and Eldar came out on top.

[Exitus Acta Probat]

K:
I am going to respectfully disagree with you on that one.

Space Marines have some of the most solid unit/character combos currently available,
have the largest potential spread of 'competitive' builds,
and have arguably the most flexible/forgiving set of rules available.

Right now, Space Marines are suffering from 'IG-itis'.
They look weak, compared to the current Meta top dawg...just like they looked quite weak against 'Fatecrusher' lists until it was unlocked, Nob Bikers until they were unlocked and will against 'Nids (not mentioning SW as they are a marine army) until they are figured out.
They are also, normally, the yardstick the rest of the 40k universe is measured against.

Finally, MEQ armies themselves spawn more conditional 'no more ***' complaints than anything else (which I will freely admit has something to do with GW marketing as well, understood...but not entirely).

Cannot be measured by local RTT's, as this is more affected by localized meta-game than anything else.

I also did not say they were THE most powerful army out there...I said they were ONE OF the most...forgiving, flexible and potentially powerful.
I will take my marines to any RTT, and be sure to place in the top 8(assume 30-ish) barring very-bad RPS matchups Everything else relates to rolls for 1st/2nd, dep zones or seizing.

And though I said finally;
TRULY finally, the measure of an armies appeal/strength should not be it's overall performance in tourney, but how well it plays on the field and rewards it's general.
I find marines/Imp MEQ to be the most flexible build/play/reward army out there.
(And yes, they can place consistently high in tourney as well....)

[mountaincycle661]

I can agree with you, Eternal. Marines nowadays just seem to be a little bit of a...well...soft target. They really do have a low model count. But it might also be the lists thats causing the problem.

For example, my buddy up in Boston (woot boston!) runs a very successful tyranid army. He told the budding space marine players "the only way to win with marines is to take a crap ton of marines. HE WHO ROLLS THE MOST DICE, WINS".

They scoffed and shot down the idea. "No way, man! You need to take this character, and that uber-expensive upgrade, and like...5 dreadnaughts man!". *sigh...*. So my friend sat down, cranked out a well rounded list, and in 1850 had something like 50-60 models. Only ONE of the space marine kids up there gave it a chance and tried the list out.

He won three games in a row, and hasnt looked back.

I think marine players get too side tracked by all the "shiny bits" and expensive wargear or characters. I honestly love playing against marines because they're so damn easy to win against. I play chaos marines. Therefore, i beat you in assault (way more attacks), im on par with you for shooting (same weapons), my characters are mean as HELL (warptime, wind of chaos sorceror anyone?). Marines just...suck? This is how the conversation of a pick up game goes for me:

"hey, wanna get a game in?"
"sure! i play marines!"
"Great! what faction? Salamanders or white scars?"
"Oh i play my own chapter! I call them the *blah blah blah*"
"(thinking quietly to myself) Excellent. This will be easy"

Unless you're playing Vulkan, or Khan, you just dont really have a chance. The marines have some neat toys, but honestly im just not afraid of them anymore. Emperor Eternal said it best: just shoot at them with some spare heavy bolters or something. That +3 save isnt really all that great. It only takes one salvo of bad armor save-rolling and that tac-squad is useless.

I feel that the marines can be a fun army. But in terms of just outright dangerous, i think they pale in comparison to hordes. The +4 cover everywhere makes a huge difference for hordes, but doesnt mean jack $hit for marines (my marines, included!). However, if GW were to change the standard and drop the points on marines or make them "more powerful", even if they had the best intentions of keeping them competitive, everyone in the world would cry out:

"******* GW PUMPING UP THEIR POSTER CHILD ARMY! SO GAY! MARINES ARE SO OVERPOWERED AND OVER THE TOP! SO LAME! DUMB! BLLLAAAAHHHH"

[Katie Drake]

If they'd just lower the omnipresent cover save to 5+ there'd be far less problems. It's irritating that one half of the Imperial Guardsmen that get hit by a bright lance or something survive.

"Thank the Emperor!"

[Exitus Acta Probat]

if they'd just lower the omnipresent cover save to 5+ there'd be far less problems. It's irritating that one half of the imperial guardsmen that get hit by a bright lance or something survive.

"thank the emperor!"

quoted for mo########ing truth.....
(just because I don't think marines aren't completely trashed, doesn't mean I am not sick of 'Cover'-hammer!!!) )

[DarkLink]

And to think that back in 4th ed I'd think "it'd be really nice if cover saves were 4+".

Really the problem is that GW boosted cover saves to a 4+, and made them way to easy to get at the same time. One or the other isn't bad, but both at the same time... not so much. It's one of the few rules that I wouldn't mind if they revised (I'd like to see ramming be a little more powerful. Tankshocking too. If every model that had to move due to a tank shock had to pass an initiative test or take a high strenght wound, tank shocking would be awesome. Balance it by letting all those infantry Death or Glory if they can, but let tanks actually run over stuff. I want my land raider's prow covered in green ork fungus after a tank shock, not to have all the orks jump out of the way harmlessly).