Originally Posted by
mountaincycle661
I can agree with you, Eternal. Marines nowadays just seem to be a little bit of a...well...soft target. They really do have a low model count. But it might also be the lists thats causing the problem.
For example, my buddy up in Boston (woot boston!) runs a very successful tyranid army. He told the budding space marine players "the only way to win with marines is to take a crap ton of marines. HE WHO ROLLS THE MOST DICE, WINS".
They scoffed and shot down the idea. "No way, man! You need to take this character, and that uber-expensive upgrade, and like...5 dreadnaughts man!". *sigh...*. So my friend sat down, cranked out a well rounded list, and in 1850 had something like 50-60 models. Only ONE of the space marine kids up there gave it a chance and tried the list out.
He won three games in a row, and hasnt looked back.
I think marine players get too side tracked by all the "shiny bits" and expensive wargear or characters. I honestly love playing against marines because they're so damn easy to win against. I play chaos marines. Therefore, i beat you in assault (way more attacks), im on par with you for shooting (same weapons), my characters are mean as HELL (warptime, wind of chaos sorceror anyone?). Marines just...suck? This is how the conversation of a pick up game goes for me:
"hey, wanna get a game in?"
"sure! i play marines!"
"Great! what faction? Salamanders or white scars?"
"Oh i play my own chapter! I call them the *blah blah blah*"
"(thinking quietly to myself) Excellent. This will be easy"
Unless you're playing Vulkan, or Khan, you just dont really have a chance. The marines have some neat toys, but honestly im just not afraid of them anymore. Emperor Eternal said it best: just shoot at them with some spare heavy bolters or something. That +3 save isnt really all that great. It only takes one salvo of bad armor save-rolling and that tac-squad is useless.
I feel that the marines can be a fun army. But in terms of just outright dangerous, i think they pale in comparison to hordes. The +4 cover everywhere makes a huge difference for hordes, but doesnt mean jack $hit for marines (my marines, included!). However, if GW were to change the standard and drop the points on marines or make them "more powerful", even if they had the best intentions of keeping them competitive, everyone in the world would cry out:
"******* GW PUMPING UP THEIR POSTER CHILD ARMY! SO GAY! MARINES ARE SO OVERPOWERED AND OVER THE TOP! SO LAME! DUMB! BLLLAAAAHHHH"